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Wish he posted here!

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Wish he posted here!

Postby Floating_Abu on Sat Apr 17, 2010 1:00 am

jinzang, a poster whom I dig, said this today on another forum

I'm glad you're getting your life together. But the real test of your new wisdom is if your afflictive emotions have decreased, not if you can answer some casual questions. Are you less greedy? Angry? Proud? Then you are well on the way on the path.

Sometimes its blue skies and sometimes its thunderclouds, and I dont think he's wrong as per usual, but I wonder -- what about the so-called aff emotions co-existing with non-affliction and peace?
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Re: Wish he posted here!

Postby christopher::: on Mon Apr 19, 2010 5:28 am

Floating_Abu wrote:jinzang, a poster whom I dig, said this today on another forum

I'm glad you're getting your life together. But the real test of your new wisdom is if your afflictive emotions have decreased, not if you can answer some casual questions. Are you less greedy? Angry? Proud? Then you are well on the way on the path.

Sometimes its blue skies and sometimes its thunderclouds, and I dont think he's wrong as per usual, but I wonder -- what about the so-called [afflictive] emotions co-existing with non-affliction and peace?


Hi FA,

Yes, co-existance is natural and for many of us a major step forward. The key thing, as jinzang put it, is that over time we become less greedy, angry, proud...

If so, we are traveling in the right direction. These are the fruits of practice.

:Namaste:
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Re: Wish he posted here!

Postby Gregory Wonderwheel on Mon Apr 19, 2010 4:15 pm

Floating_Abu wrote:jinzang, a poster whom I dig, said this today on another forum

I'm glad you're getting your life together. But the real test of your new wisdom is if your afflictive emotions have decreased, not if you can answer some casual questions. Are you less greedy? Angry? Proud? Then you are well on the way on the path.

Sometimes its blue skies and sometimes its thunderclouds, and I dont think he's wrong as per usual, but I wonder -- what about the so-called aff emotions co-existing with non-affliction and peace?

I was interested to read the above and see that I immediately pigeon-holed it as a Theravada style analysis, not a Zen analysis, or even a Mahayana analysis.

The desire to decrease so-called afflictive emotions is an elementary stage of Buddha Dharma. In fact, the desire to decrease afflictive emotions can be counter productive in some situations, because it hides the denial inherent in our karmic self-defense mechanisms and it reinforceses the delusion that emotions are "bad". In other words, the term "afflicted emotions" needs to be unpacked so that we know the difference between emotions and afflictions and don't confuse emotions with afflictions.

As Bodhidhama stated in his Outline For Discerning the Mahayana and Entering the Way By Four Practices and Contemplation

"Entering by practice" means the four practices, and in the surplus and diversity of practices, know to enter among these. What are the four categories? First, the practice of retribution for wrongs. Second, the practice of according with conditioned causes. Third, the practice of nothing to seek. Fourth, the practice of corresponding to Dharma. What can be said?

“The practice of retribution for wrongs” means a person who is cultivating the practice of the Way. If you are in a time of receiving suffering, face yourself and think to say, “I’ve gone through past innumerable aeons (kalpas) abandoning the root and following the tips, existing in the various currents and waves, hating the many arising wrongs, opposing and harming without limit. Although I'm without offenses now, my former misfortunes ripen as the fruit of evil karma, and neither heavenly beings (devas) nor humans are able to see where they are given out. With a willing heart-mind I willingly receive it, all without complaint of wrongs.” A Sutra says, “Do not grieve when you meet with suffering," For what is the use of reasoning? Consciousness transcends reason. At the time this arises in your heart-mind you correspond with principle. Wrongs in their essence are progress in the Way, and for this reason the words are spoken, "the practice of retribution for wrongs”


How is that relevant? It points to the situation that emotions are not the problem if the emotions are the retributive events of past karmia-acts. Emotions are anot afflictive per se. It is our self-identification with emotions that provides the matrix for afflictions to become misidentified as emotions.

Meditation at this level of practice is not for the purpose of decreasing emotions but for recognizing the beneficial dharmas from unbeneficial dharmas as they arise in our consciousness. Attachment, aversion, pride, ignorance, views, and doubt are the six basic afflictions. Pride, for example, can attach to any dharma (thing-event in concsiousness) including emotions, such as, pride in "decreasing afflictive emotions."

_/|\_
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Why you do not understand is because the three carts were provisional for former times, and because the One Vehicle is true for the present time. ~ Zen Master 6th Ancestor Huineng
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Re: Wish he posted here!

Postby PeterB on Mon Apr 19, 2010 4:50 pm

In fact Gregory, Jinzang is neither a Theravadin nor a Zen practitioner. He is a follower of a particularly traditional school of the Vajrayana. The Drikung Kagyu. He follows one particular sub school which sees Orgyen Trinley as the latest incarnation of the Kamarpas. There is another claiment to the title who is supported by another sub group.
Last edited by PeterB on Mon Apr 19, 2010 5:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Wish he posted here!

Postby genkaku on Mon Apr 19, 2010 4:56 pm

somewhat to the right of Namdrol.


:)
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Re: Wish he posted here!

Postby PeterB on Mon Apr 19, 2010 4:59 pm

Sorry Adam I pulled that, fearing it would be seen as an "attack".. :)
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Re: Wish he posted here!

Postby genkaku on Mon Apr 19, 2010 5:00 pm

Meditation at this level of practice is not for the purpose of decreasing emotions but for recognizing the beneficial dharmas from unbeneficial dharmas as they arise in our consciousness. Attachment, aversion, pride, ignorance, views, and doubt are the six basic afflictions. Pride, for example, can attach to any dharma (thing-event in concsiousness) including emotions, such as, pride in "decreasing afflictive emotions."


:)
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Re: Wish he posted here!

Postby PeterB on Mon Apr 19, 2010 5:07 pm

From one perspective there are no "afflictive " emotions. From another perspective any emotion around which we build a solid personality are afflictive, even if apparently wholesome. They are all grist to the mill, it seems to me.
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Re: Wish he posted here!

Postby Carol on Mon Apr 19, 2010 5:18 pm

PeterB wrote:From one perspective there are no "afflictive " emotions. From another perspective any emotion around which we build a solid personality are afflictive, even if apparently wholesome. They are all grist to the mill, it seems to me.


Much like thoughts, emotions rise and fall away. Are they afflictive, or is the identification with them as my "self" the affliction?
Practitioners who cultivate the personal realization of buddha knowledge dwell in the bliss of whatever is present and do not abandon their practice.
~Lankavatara Sutra
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Re: Wish he posted here!

Postby PeterB on Mon Apr 19, 2010 5:24 pm

:Namaste:
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Re: Wish he posted here!

Postby shoey on Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:32 pm

PeterB wrote:From one perspective there are no "afflictive " emotions. From another perspective any emotion around which we build a solid personality are afflictive, even if apparently wholesome. They are all grist to the mill, it seems to me.


yes,me like grist.

ego is very subtle.
dont be fooled
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Re: Wish he posted here!

Postby Shonin on Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:22 pm

Gregory Wonderwheel wrote:The desire to decrease so-called afflictive emotions is an elementary stage of Buddha Dharma. In fact, the desire to decrease afflictive emotions can be counter productive in some situations, because it hides the denial inherent in our karmic self-defense mechanisms and it reinforceses the delusion that emotions are "bad". In other words, the term "afflicted emotions" needs to be unpacked so that we know the difference between emotions and afflictions and don't confuse emotions with afflictions.


But Jinzang didn't recommend chasing or having greed towards or pride about reducing afflictive emotions, his point was simply about the fact of whether these phenomena have decreased.

We can have desire around many things including dharma, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't practice. Nor does it mean we should make use of 'waysigns' and 'maps' - feedback in other words about whether we are going in the right direction.
The Victorious Ones have announced that emptiness is the relinquishing of all views. Those who are possessed of the view of emptiness are said to be incorrigible.
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Re: Wish he posted here!

Postby PeterB on Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:05 pm

shoey wrote:
PeterB wrote:From one perspective there are no "afflictive " emotions. From another perspective any emotion around which we build a solid personality are afflictive, even if apparently wholesome. They are all grist to the mill, it seems to me.


yes,me like grist.

ego is very subtle.
dont be fooled

Nothing subtle about my ego shoey.
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Re: Wish he posted here!

Postby Floating_Abu on Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:50 am

Interesting discussion, thanks all.
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Re: Wish he posted here!

Postby retrofuturist on Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:40 am

Greetings Abu,

Floating_Abu wrote:Sometimes its blue skies and sometimes its thunderclouds, and I dont think he's wrong as per usual, but I wonder -- what about the so-called aff emotions co-existing with non-affliction and peace?

With introspection you may observe that your mindstates at any one time is either wholesome or unwholesome and that it can't really be both at the same time... so they don't co-exist at the same moment in time, but you will have moments of both and you will probably alternative between them many times throughout the course of the day. The challenge is to be mindful of what's happening, and to not respond to afflictive or unwholesome emotions with aversion... because that just creates a nasty cycle. Whether it is in yourself, or in others, it is always best to respond to suffering with loving-kindness and compassion.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Mind precedes mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox. (Dhp1)
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Re: Wish he posted here!

Postby Gregory Wonderwheel on Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:47 am

PeterB wrote:In fact Gregory, Jinzang is neither a Theravadin nor a Zen practitioner. He is a follower of a particularly traditional school of the Vajrayana. The Drikung Kagyu. He follows one particular sub school which sees Orgyen Trinley as the latest incarnation of the Kamarpas. There is another claiment to the title who is supported by another sub group.

Thanks, I figured that might be the case. That is why I was remarking on observing my own bias.

_/|\_
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Why you do not understand is because the three carts were provisional for former times, and because the One Vehicle is true for the present time. ~ Zen Master 6th Ancestor Huineng
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Re: Wish he posted here!

Postby PeterB on Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:08 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Abu,

Floating_Abu wrote:Sometimes its blue skies and sometimes its thunderclouds, and I dont think he's wrong as per usual, but I wonder -- what about the so-called aff emotions co-existing with non-affliction and peace?

With introspection you may observe that your mindstates at any one time is either wholesome or unwholesome and that it can't really be both at the same time... so they don't co-exist at the same moment in time, but you will have moments of both and you will probably alternative between them many times throughout the course of the day. The challenge is to be mindful of what's happening, and to not respond to afflictive or unwholesome emotions with aversion... because that just creates a nasty cycle. Whether it is in yourself, or in others, it is always best to respond to suffering with loving-kindness and compassion.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Well put Paul.
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Re: Wish he posted here!

Postby retrofuturist on Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:48 am

(Ignoring the terrible grammar in my post, I see... :lol2: )

Thanks Peter.

:Namaste:

Metta,
Retro. :)
Mind precedes mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox. (Dhp1)
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Re: Wish he posted here!

Postby PeterB on Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:18 am

Hey its the meat that counts...not a little lump in the gravy.. :)
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Re: Wish he posted here!

Postby Floating_Abu on Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:35 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Abu,

Floating_Abu wrote:Sometimes its blue skies and sometimes its thunderclouds, and I dont think he's wrong as per usual, but I wonder -- what about the so-called aff emotions co-existing with non-affliction and peace?

With introspection you may observe that your mindstates at any one time is either wholesome or unwholesome and that it can't really be both at the same time... so they don't co-exist at the same moment in time, but you will have moments of both and you will probably alternative between them many times throughout the course of the day. The challenge is to be mindful of what's happening, and to not respond to afflictive or unwholesome emotions with aversion... because that just creates a nasty cycle. Whether it is in yourself, or in others, it is always best to respond to suffering with loving-kindness and compassion.

Metta,
Retro. :)


Actually they do co-exist.

Best,

Abu
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