Welcome admin !

It is currently Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:45 am
Pathway:  Board index Zen Discussion Forum Zen Practice & Philosophy Zen Buddhism

Eido Shimano's lineage...

Discussions of Zen Buddhism in all shapes and sizes.

Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby Genjo on Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:22 pm

Recently I've read with much interest an email exchange between my Dharma sister, Shinge Roko Sherry Chayat Roshi and Jeff Shore, professor of Hanazono University in Kyōto, a Japanese Rinzai lineage affiliated university, where he has taught since 1987. For anyone associated with Eido Shimano Roshi or any of his five Dharma Heirs (I am the last of these) this will be a must read. (See: http://www.shimanoarchive.com/PDFs/2012 ... _Shore.pdf)

The Shimano Archive reported some time ago that Eido Shimano was not listed as a Dharma Heir under Soen Nakagawa Roshi in an official Japanese Rinzai lineage chart. After exploring this matter for myself I concluded in 2010 that "Apparently, Soen Roshi… gave Dharma Transmission to Eido Roshi, but failed to record it properly in Japan. I believe he did this because he was so angry with Eido Roshi for not stopping his bad behavior." (See: http://www.choboji.org/PMN104.pdf, Plum Mountain News, V17.4, page 7)

My deep interest in Zen training began with a conversation with Osho Diazen Brian Victoria on the UCLA campus in 1975 (Daizen went on to write Zen at War where he talks about the "moral blindness" of Japanese Zen.) He sent me to learn zazen from Thích Thiên-Ân at the College of Oriental Studies in LA near ZCLA. After graduation and my move to Seattle, I began sitting with Glenn Webb Sensei and the Seattle Zen Center. This group invited Osho Genki Takabayashi to be its resident teacher in 1978. I was at the airport to greet Genki when he arrived in Seattle and apprenticed with him for twenty years until his retirement. However, even though Genki Takabayashi claimed to be a Dharma Heir in the Japanese Rinzai lineage, his claim is NOT sanctioned by the hierarchy in Japan any more than Eido Shimano's.

Where does that leave me and all Dharma Heirs linked to Eido Shimano? We are all not recognized by the hierarchy of the Japanese Rinzai lineage. Does this disturb me very much? Not really; I am now in the good company of many sister American lineages such as the Philp Kapleau line. For a great review of issues surrounding Dharma transmission see the following essay by my good friend Bodhin Kjolhede, head of the Rochester Zen Center (See: http://www3.telus.net/public/sarlo/Ykjolhede.htm#kjol). Also take a look at an excellent essay by Dale Wright, which explores how sanctioned masters fall short (see: http://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/Phi ... ension.pdf).

Gempo Yamamoto Roshi, who I still think of as my Dharma Great-Grandfather, likened our adult sense of a separated ego identity as feeling as though we are stuck in a really narrow box; we might think of it as a crib. When we’re stuck inside our personal identity, it’s like we’re stuck inside our infantile idea of self. However, when we have some “awakening” we realize that the box has no lid and we step out of it. I suppose one could call it attainment but all we’re doing is stepping outside of our own box of our infantile idea of self. Zen Master Rinzai refers to this as “obtaining the Dharma.” Whether we call it “obtaining,” “attainment,” “realization,” or “enlightenment,” all we have really done is step outside of the box of our infantile idea of self. That’s it!

It is as though we are mostly little baby Buddhas who live a lot of life in our cribs. When we step out of the crib, living outside the box is so simple. And, when we find ourselves back in our cribs, living inside the box feels narrow and difficult. We all have a lot of growing up to do to learn how to live outside our cribs. First we need to step even briefly outside of the box, get that open-hearted feeling, and let in the truth that we are one with Kannon (Bodhisattva of Compassion) and the Tathâgata, then the real work begins when you come back to your crib.

Before we can more consistently live out of the box we must clean out the stinky karmic baggage we have collected since birth. This may take as long to clean out as it took to collect. Zen practice is initially all about pushing us out of the box, which is helpful and grants us for a time a very wide perspective. However, it is difficult to connect with a sense of emancipation and unconditional compassion for very long. Sooner or later we discover that we have once again returned to the box of our own making.

Most of us have deep resistance to working with our karmic baggage. In some cases we can become so resistant to working with our baggage that we repress our own history. If this happens we may come to believe we have no shit. A big mistake! It is great to step outside the box and make a heart connection with Kannon, but our real work begins when we are able to look at ourselves clearly, becoming deeply motivated to face our faults and clean up our poor behavior. If through difficult purges, many dark nights of the soul, our own intestines become relatively clear, our great vow will motivate us to begin clearing the baggage of the collective unconscious. This is truly the deep work of Zen practice. On this point my "Dharma Father" Eido Shimano, my "Dharma Sister" Shinge Roko Chayat and I have a lot of work to do. In this light, I'm exploring an association with Joan Halifax and Bernie Glassman and will be attending the Zen Peacemakers retreat this November at Auschwitz in Poland (see: http://zenpeacemakers.org/events/bearin ... zbirkenau/)

As for my view of the Zen Studies Society (ZSS) and Shinge's position in regards to Eido Shimano, I have made my opinion abundantly and repeatedly clear, for an overview see: http://www.choboji.org/PMN114.pdf pages 8 & 9. Shinge claims that she "will not hide behind delusive chains," that "the smoke and mirrors.. must be cleared away" and that "the reason we are in such a mess is that we believed in a manipulative sociopath who was anything but a true man without rank." This being the case it seems to me the first step would be to repudiate her own erroneous actions of support for Eido Shimano. A start would be excluding him hence forth from stepping foot on ZSS properties, and refusing to pay him a penny more in compensation while he continues to teach in any venue.

Both the positives and negatives arising from my association with Genki Roshi and Eido Roshi have proved to be great catalysts in my own unfolding and development, and I believe they have served similarly for others. That they are not approved "Roshis" in the official Japanese Rinzai lineage is of little consequence to me. I derive my own confidence in having no attachment to rank or position from my own hard work. I have no need of a title, and I have nothing against accepting a role/title to assist in others' unfolding. I hope to pass on the best of what I've learned in my more than three decades of Zen training, along with many necessary cautions. If I succeed in serving others in this way, I will be most blessed.

What is of great consequence to me, and all those waiting for real recovery at the ZSS, is that the Shimanos continue to be supported and honored by Shinge and the ZSS board, while those taken advantage of, over decades of abuse of power, are essentially abandoned by the organization. In my opinion, victims NOT support of the Shimanos should be given highest priority. Shinge and the ZSS board have as yet failed to sufficiently publicly repudiate and distance themselves from Shimanos or admit their organizational culpability. They are still caught in their own hall of smoke and mirrors. For my part I will continue to press for support for victims and will never hide the fact that my "Dharma Father," Eido Shimano has demonstrated repeatedly that he is a narcissist of the highest caliber, who stands somewhere between Jerry Sandusky and Lance Armstrong. All three men have talent, but they, and their supporters, are in such denial that they have little or no idea of the harm they have done and continue to do by proving themselves incapable of real remorse or restitution.
Abbot of Dai Bai Zan Cho Bo Zen Ji (Chobo-Ji) temple, Seattle, USA; psychotherapist and certificated spiritual director.

http://www.choboji.org
User avatar
Genjo
Teacher
 
Posts: 190
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 5:57 pm
Location: Seattle, WA USA

Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby Michaeljc on Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:18 pm

What is of great consequence to me, and all those waiting for real recovery at the ZSS, is that the Shimanos continue to be supported and honored by Shinge and the ZSS board, while those taken advantage of, over decades of abuse of power, are essentially abandoned by the organization. In my opinion, victims NOT support of the Shimanos should be given highest priority. Shinge and the ZSS board have as yet failed to sufficiently publicly repudiate and distance themselves from Shimanos or admit their organizational culpability. They are still caught in their own hall of smoke and mirrors. For my part I will continue to press for support for victims and will never hide the fact that my "Dharma Father," Eido Shimano has demonstrated repeatedly that he is a narcissist of the highest caliber, who stands somewhere between Jerry Sandusky and Lance Armstrong. All three men have talent, but they, and their supporters, are in such denial that they have little or no idea of the harm they have done and continue to do by proving themselves incapable of real remorse or restitution.


Genjo – with respect, this is a public forum, not a kangaroo court. There are justice systems in place to deal with alleged misdemeanors.

:Namaste:

m
Last edited by Michaeljc on Tue Oct 23, 2012 3:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Michaeljc
 
Posts: 3620
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 3:36 pm
Location: Raglan New Zealand

Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby Nevermind on Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:38 pm

Misdemeanors?! The laws in New Zealand must be VERY different.
Nevermind
 
Posts: 78
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:01 pm

Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby Zendudest on Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:39 pm

An interesting exchange of emails that you pointed out to us all.

One remark stands out:

When the "practice" at Daibosatsu and elsewhere under Eido is examined, nothing even approaching Rinzai Zen practice ever occurred. Do you truly think it could have occurred in such an environment and with such a person?
Do you really think it is going on now?



Indeed


And that the response was:

Thank you for your continuing efforts. I understand you need a few weeks to find
out what exactly happened.
My questions are,
Did Soen Roshi ever put Eido Roshi in the official Ryutaku-ji lineage?
If so, did he disinherit him and take off his name, and when?
Or did the Myoshin-ji establishment remove his name?
Thank you, and in the mean time, I will reflect on the related matters you bring up
here.
Gassho,
Sherry


Indeed
User avatar
Zendudest
 
Posts: 120
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 5:01 pm
Location: Durham-Chapel Hill area

Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby Nonin on Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:46 pm

None of this is news. Rather than shooting from the hip, people need to read this whole thread.

Soen Nakagawa went through dharma transmission with Eido Shimano, thereby designating Eido his dharma heir, in a traditional, public Rinzai Zen ceremony witnessed by many people. At this point, no one knows why Eido' name does not appear as Soen's dharma heir in the Ryutaku-ji roles (Ryutaku-ji was both men's home temple).

Also, most of Genjo's post above does not deal directly with this lineage issue but merely rehashes the same stuff that's been rehashed ad nauseum in the now locked Eido Shimano thread. As Michaeljc posted above, this is not a kangaroo court. This thread deals specifically with the lineage issue, so how about it if we all stick to the subject.

Hands palm-to-palm,

Nonin
Soto Zen Buddhist Priest. Transmitted Dharma Heir of Dainin Katagiri Roshi.
Abbot and Head Teacher, Nebraska Zen Center / Heartland Temple, Omaha, Nebraska, USA
http://www.prairiewindzen.org
User avatar
Nonin
Teacher
 
Posts: 4580
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2009 3:30 pm
Location: Omaha, Nebraska, USA

Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby Carol on Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:47 pm

Moderator's Note:

This topic is the authenticity of Eido Shimano's lineage transmission from Soen Nakagawa Roshi and, by extension, the legitimacy of Shimano line of dharma heirs as "authentic" Rinzai Zen Masters, and by further extension, the necessity or non-necessity of "official and duly recorded" dharma transmission to the transmission of the Dharma.

Please confine your remarks to these topics, only. This topic may not be used to circumvent the closure of the topic concerning Eido Shimano's and other Zen teachers' actual and/or alleged sexual and other misconduct.

Any further off-topic remarks will be removed.
Practitioners who cultivate the personal realization of buddha knowledge dwell in the bliss of whatever is present and do not abandon their practice.
~Lankavatara Sutra
User avatar
Carol
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 10326
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:52 am
Location: Santa Rosa, CA

Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby Nonin on Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:53 pm

Eido Shimano's transmission ceremony with Soen Nakagawa was witnessed by many people, for Soen recognized Shimano as his dharma heir in a traditional, public Rinzai ceremony. Why Shimano does not appear on the official Japanese Rinzai roles as Soen's disciple is unknown at this point. Any reason anyone gives for this is merely speculation.

Most Zen Buddhist (and Son, Thien, etc.) teachers working in the West, both Asian and Western, do not register either those they ordain or transmit in the country of the tradition's origin. Katagiri-roshi did not register any of us in Japan until long after he ordained us, and he did us all at once because without the registration, we couldn't fully enter Japanese monasteries, and he wanted to give us the opportunity.

I did the formal, traditional Japanese registration of those I ordained at first, but now I don't do either. We in Soto Zen have our own organization (SZBA) with whom we register priests and disciples.

Gossiping or speculating about this subject will not get anyone anywhere. There may be a simple reason why Shimano is not listed as Soen Nakagawa's dharma heir on the Japanese role in question, but at this point, no one knows the reason, simple or otherwise, and we may never know why if Soen took the reason for the omission to his grave and told no one.

At any rate, this is a matter for those close to the situation to iron out, and Shinge Chayat certainly seems to be trying to do so. However, nothing will change the fact that the dharma transmission between Soen and Eido was carried out in the traditional manner and witnessed by many people. The registration is an institutional matter that has now become a political one.

Hands palm-to-palm,

Nonin
Soto Zen Buddhist Priest. Transmitted Dharma Heir of Dainin Katagiri Roshi.
Abbot and Head Teacher, Nebraska Zen Center / Heartland Temple, Omaha, Nebraska, USA
http://www.prairiewindzen.org
User avatar
Nonin
Teacher
 
Posts: 4580
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2009 3:30 pm
Location: Omaha, Nebraska, USA

Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby Carol on Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:19 pm

I don't know what the future of Rinzai Zen transmission in the West will be.

To my knowledge Shodo Harada Roshi (in his 80s I believe) has not named any Western Dharma heirs. Joshu Sasaki Roshi (now 105 years old) has named more than 20 Oshos (authorized to teach, but not to transmit the lineage). I understand from talking to one of them that Josho Sasaki has said that he will not name a successor and that he will leave it up to the Oshos to decide how to carry on after he is gone.

Meido might be able to give us more information on his Rinzai lineage and how it is being transmitted in the West.
Practitioners who cultivate the personal realization of buddha knowledge dwell in the bliss of whatever is present and do not abandon their practice.
~Lankavatara Sutra
User avatar
Carol
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 10326
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:52 am
Location: Santa Rosa, CA

Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby Nevermind on Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:48 pm

Carol wrote:I do. A teacher's lineage is not so important has his or her conduct.

I'm not much impressed by rumors or speculations about so-and-so's transmission. There have been fine teachers whose transmission or lack of it has been called into question. I'm also certain that historically such things have happened many times over the centuries when teachers became angry with or disappointed in their dharma heirs. Such is human nature. Still the teaching has come down to us through all that ... for which I am grateful.

:Namaste:

Nice post. One of the best in the topic, having just reviewed it.
Nevermind
 
Posts: 78
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:01 pm

Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby Nonin on Mon Oct 22, 2012 10:08 pm

Once again, please read this entire thread, especially what Denko Mortensen has written. Here's one small part of one of his posts:
There is a picture of the traditionally give scroll at the inka ceremony, "Done!", on page 133 in the book "ENDLESS VOW" which says (besides "done!"): "To Mui Shitsu from Mitta Kutsu September 5, 1972 for official acknowledgement of inka."

This scroll (on occations at least) used to hang in the dokusan room at New York Zendo.

Mui Shitsu is Soen Nakagawa; Mitta Kutsu is Eido Shimano.

Hands palm-to-palm,

Nonin
Soto Zen Buddhist Priest. Transmitted Dharma Heir of Dainin Katagiri Roshi.
Abbot and Head Teacher, Nebraska Zen Center / Heartland Temple, Omaha, Nebraska, USA
http://www.prairiewindzen.org
User avatar
Nonin
Teacher
 
Posts: 4580
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2009 3:30 pm
Location: Omaha, Nebraska, USA

Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby Meido on Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:31 pm

Carol wrote:I don't know what the future of Rinzai Zen transmission in the West will be.

To my knowledge Shodo Harada Roshi (in his 80s I believe) has not named any Western Dharma heirs. Joshu Sasaki Roshi (now 105 years old) has named more than 20 Oshos (authorized to teach, but not to transmit the lineage). I understand from talking to one of them that Josho Sasaki has said that he will not name a successor and that he will leave it up to the Oshos to decide how to carry on after he is gone.

Meido might be able to give us more information on his Rinzai lineage and how it is being transmitted in the West.


I have no idea either how things will develop.

Something that many folks might not realize when discussing these things is that the Rinzai establishment in Japan is not a single body. It is divided into 14 branches, each with its own network and headquarters temple. This is not to say that Rinzai Zen is not unified there...it is. Just that when we say "Rinzai Zen", its best not to envision a monolithic organization someplace with one person in charge.

In any case, I have not seen a tremendous interest by any of these branches in the kind of outreach - or oversight - in the West that Soto-shu seems to be actively engaged in. Perhaps that is changing, at least in regards to the situation with Eido Roshi. But it is also best, at least at this point, to not envision a Rinzai organization someplace that has any great involvement in the USA.

As for our lineage, it comes through the Tenryu-ji branch. Omori Roshi, the teacher who transmitted our line to the west, has a number of successors active both in Japan and the west. Some of those successors have named their own successors, and some of those have as well. So we're several generations into transmission here, and with a few exceptions it has essentially been done in a traditional manner: many years of practice, completion of a koan curriculum and so on.

But I know of no non-Japanese heir of this line who's registered in any manner in Japan. This is partly due to the fact that Omori Roshi himself made a break with Japan in some ways by founding a new temple in Hawaii and purposefully transmitting his lineage there.

So at this point we have a few western lineage holders who never entered a Japanese sodo, but have trained completely at temples in the west. I have not perceived much interest among us in what is going on in Japan. We're a small community, and not terribly interested in being huge...just in offering the practice we've received in its entirety, as widely as we can, and hopefully producing a few folks in each generation who can continue to do that.

The only contact our group has had with other Rinzai groups is through me, as I've been fortunate enough to attend several sesshin with Genjo. Before that none of us knew anything about what other Rinzai groups do. There is no "RZBA", for example, and little contact between the different Rinzai teaching lines. This has both its pros and cons.

Nonin wrote:This scroll (on occations at least) used to hang in the dokusan room at New York Zendo.


It is traditional in the Tenryu-ji line at least to hang the transmission documents for public viewing in a tokonoma within that teacher's temple on New Year's Day. Though it is often said that these things are not for showing to others, this is to avoid misunderstandings and confusion. There have been a number of incidents in history of teachers who did not receive inka but claimed to, or who did receive it verbally but not the certificates for some reason, or who received one of the usual certificates but not the second one, and so on. For these reasons and others the tradition was established, and it's been stressed to us that we should continue it here.

Regarding Eido Roshi, it's not a secret in Rinzai circles that he did not have time to complete his koan practice before leaving Japan. But I have no idea what Soen Roshi gave him later in 1972. If there is a genuine document confirming inka shomei, and in the accepted form of that line's shitsunai, that would be sufficient to me to confirm that Eido carries that lineage. Whether or how a dharma heir is registered in Japan is not something I have any knowledge about at all. Dharma transmission in Rinzai Zen is solely the prerogative of each teacher, and is (supposedly) not restricted by organizational concerns. As far as I know it is not revokable by any organization.

Of course in Japan, a problematic teacher might be controlled simply by not being confirmed as the head priest at any place. Here on the wild Zen frontier, things are wide open and priests that are able to establish their own places are free to do so without any approval...or by approval of their NFP boards of directors, who often are not priests. Again, there are pros and cons to this.

Finally, the question of true awakening and realization is obviously one which concerns me more than documents. I have never practiced with Eido Roshi, but I have attended sesshin with one of his heirs, as mentioned. I would have no hesitation to do so again (and indeed hope to). It is, after all, possible for a student to surpass a teacher, or to actualize and manifest as realization that which the teacher has pointed out...but tragically not been able to actualize for him/herself. This is a confirmation of the reality of lineage: no matter what our failings (and they are often great) there is an odd, thin thread of continuity in dharma relationship that is precious. It is because of this that we may still hold gratitude for our teacher, even - strangely enough - one who has failed us so grievously. This is especially encouraging to me personally, as it means my students need not be hindered by my own really great failings of them, and my own ongoing blind spots which I'm not certain, to be honest, I'll ever adequately illuminate in this life.

I say this last bit not to excuse anyone, of course...least of all myself. Just to acknowledge that there is great complexity in what we experience and feel with our teachers, and what we actually gain from our practice with them. And to recognize that the dharma gate of seeing one's true nature can't be buried in shit...even within one generation it can spring up again. So many bows to students and teachers everywhere.

Apologies for the long post.

~ Meido
明道禅徹
The Rinzai Zen Community: http://www.rinzaizen.org
Korinji monastery [臨済宗 • 祖的山光林禅寺]: http://www.korinji.org
Madison Rinzai Zen Community/Ryugen-ji [機山龍源寺]: http://www.madisonrinzaizen.org
http://rinzaiheartland.blogspot.com
User avatar
Meido
Teacher
 
Posts: 898
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:22 am
Location: Madison, WI - USA

Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby Nevermind on Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:58 pm

Meido wrote:Finally, the question of true awakening and realization is obviously one which concerns me more than documents. I have never practiced with Eido Roshi, but I have attended sesshin with one of his heirs, as mentioned. I would have no hesitation to do so again (and indeed hope to). It is possible for a student to surpass a teacher, or to actualize and manifest as realization that which the teacher has pointed out...but tragically not been able to actualize for him/herself. This is a confirmation of the reality of lineage...no matter what our failings (and they are often great) there is an odd, thin thread of continuity that is precious. It is because of this that we may still have gratitude to our teacher, even - strangely enough - one who has failed us so grievously. And this is also encouraging to me personally, as it means my students need not be hindered by my own really great failings of them, and my own ongoing blind spots which I'm not certain, to be honest, I'll ever adequately illuminate in this life.

Complex feelings indeed, Meido. On the one hand you say that realization is more important than "documents," and on the other say the "thin thread of continuity" (regardless of what a Zen teacher has actualized, or how grievously they have failed) is precious. The so called thin thread of continuity is made possible by mere authority or "documents," regardless of what a Zen teacher has actualized, or how grievously they have failed.
Nevermind
 
Posts: 78
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:01 pm

Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby Meido on Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:29 am

Nevermind wrote:Complex feelings indeed, Meido. On the one hand you say that realization is more important than "documents," and on the other say the "thin thread of continuity" (regardless of what a Zen teacher has actualized, or how grievously they have failed) is precious. The so called thin thread of continuity is made possible by mere authority or "documents," regardless of what a Zen teacher has actualized, or how grievously they have failed.


No, I did not conflate "thin thread of continuity" and "documents" in that manner. I said that dharma relationship - not authority, or documents - creates a thread of continuity that is not extinguished by a teacher's failings and may still blossom in those who come after. This is not itself realization, actualization or an immunity from failings. But it is the potentiality for a teacher's successors to surpass him/her 1000-fold. There are obviously many without documents or authority who carry this as well. It is something received - or I should say, recognized - in relationship with others and through practice, so we call it a thread.

If you take issue with my assertion that such a thread can pass through someone like Eido Roshi and still emerge intact in a successor of his, I get that.

~ Meido
明道禅徹
The Rinzai Zen Community: http://www.rinzaizen.org
Korinji monastery [臨済宗 • 祖的山光林禅寺]: http://www.korinji.org
Madison Rinzai Zen Community/Ryugen-ji [機山龍源寺]: http://www.madisonrinzaizen.org
http://rinzaiheartland.blogspot.com
User avatar
Meido
Teacher
 
Posts: 898
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:22 am
Location: Madison, WI - USA

Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby Carol on Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:00 am

A koan from the three turning words of Songyuan Chongyue:

"Why can't clear-eyed bodhisattvas sever the red thread?"

Songyuan Chongyue 松源崇岳 (Sung-yuan Ch’ung-yueh, Shogen Sogaku), 1139-1209. A Dharma Ancestor of the Transmission that came to Hakuin. He appears in Gateless Gate 20. He is also known for the following: Master Songyuan addressed the assembly and said, “In order to realize the Way with perfect clarity, there is one essential point you must penetrate and not avoid: the red thread of passions that cannot be severed. Few really face this problem, and it is not at all easy to settle. Face it directly without hesitation, for how else can liberation come?”

Note of interest: There is a red line running through the lineage as it is written in the transmission documents.
Practitioners who cultivate the personal realization of buddha knowledge dwell in the bliss of whatever is present and do not abandon their practice.
~Lankavatara Sutra
User avatar
Carol
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 10326
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:52 am
Location: Santa Rosa, CA

Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby Nevermind on Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:02 am

Meido wrote:I said that dharma relationship - not authority, or documents - creates a thread of continuity that is not extinguished by a teacher's failings...

Perhaps you underestimate the power of the dissonance between the "documents" (what is supposed to be) and the Zen teacher's failings (what is).
Nevermind
 
Posts: 78
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:01 pm

Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby Meido on Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:43 am

Nevermind wrote:Perhaps you underestimate the power of the dissonance between the "documents" (what is supposed to be) and the Zen teacher's failings (what is).


That is indeed possible, but the dissonance arises largely from a misunderstanding of what the documents are supposed to be.

Inka in Rinzai Zen does not signify that a person has finished training at all (and the documents often have words within them affirming that). It only affirms that a person is ready to be responsible for his/her own practice going forward...and hopefully will continue onward diligently.

It may include permission to teach others to some degree. Or prohibitions or conditions on doing so. Permission to train others is not something that is automatically granted with inka, and is not something that is given as a document in my experience.

Incidentally, Inka may also be given to anyone, not just priests. There are many laypersons who receive this recognition as well, and may have no responsibility or authority attached to it since they already have full lives, careers, family and so on.

The title "Roshi" (or "Rokoji" for a layperson) also does not automatically come with inka.

English terms like "Zen Master" are thrown around, of course, which is unfortunate.

Expectations that Zen priests or teachers are necessarily qualified to provide professional pastoral care, spiritual direction, or therapy are also unfortunate. And we should state clearly that we aren't these things (except of course in those cases where a teacher might well be).

I recognize the way in which these things have been manipulated and misinterpreted. It is important for us to clear this up whenever we can. At our place we do so frequently and openly, and do our best to affirm that Zen teachers are to be viewed as nothing more than experienced peers.

~ Meido
明道禅徹
The Rinzai Zen Community: http://www.rinzaizen.org
Korinji monastery [臨済宗 • 祖的山光林禅寺]: http://www.korinji.org
Madison Rinzai Zen Community/Ryugen-ji [機山龍源寺]: http://www.madisonrinzaizen.org
http://rinzaiheartland.blogspot.com
User avatar
Meido
Teacher
 
Posts: 898
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:22 am
Location: Madison, WI - USA

Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby Nevermind on Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:04 am

An uncommonly humble post, Meido. Thank you very much.
Nevermind
 
Posts: 78
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:01 pm

Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby Gregory Wonderwheel on Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:24 am

Nevermind wrote:
Meido wrote:I said that dharma relationship - not authority, or documents - creates a thread of continuity that is not extinguished by a teacher's failings...

Perhaps you underestimate the power of the dissonance between the "documents" (what is supposed to be) and the Zen teacher's failings (what is).

I'm seeing a dissonance in the use of the term "documents." Meido's use of "documents" is not the same as Nevermind's use of "documents."

_/|\_
Gregory
Why you do not understand is because the three carts were provisional for former times, and because the One Vehicle is true for the present time. ~ Zen Master 6th Ancestor Huineng
User avatar
Gregory Wonderwheel
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 4238
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2009 3:07 am
Location: Santa Rosa, California

Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby Gregory Wonderwheel on Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:32 am

Nonin wrote:Also, most of Genjo's post above does not deal directly with this lineage issue but merely rehashes the same stuff that's been rehashed ad nauseum in the now locked Eido Shimano thread.

I strongly disagree with this characterization, but I will not discuss it further so as not to go off topic.

_/|\_
Gregory
Why you do not understand is because the three carts were provisional for former times, and because the One Vehicle is true for the present time. ~ Zen Master 6th Ancestor Huineng
User avatar
Gregory Wonderwheel
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 4238
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2009 3:07 am
Location: Santa Rosa, California

Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby Michaeljc on Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:50 am

Carol wrote:A koan from the three turning words of Songyuan Chongyue:

"Why can't clear-eyed bodhisattvas sever the red thread?"

Songyuan Chongyue 松源崇岳 (Sung-yuan Ch’ung-yueh, Shogen Sogaku), 1139-1209. A Dharma Ancestor of the Transmission that came to Hakuin. He appears in Gateless Gate 20. He is also known for the following: Master Songyuan addressed the assembly and said, “In order to realize the Way with perfect clarity, there is one essential point you must penetrate and not avoid: the red thread of passions that cannot be severed. Few really face this problem, and it is not at all easy to settle. Face it directly without hesitation, for how else can liberation come?”

Note of interest: There is a red line running through the lineage as it is written in the transmission documents.


Is the same as Dogen’s ‘iron rod’? I believe so.
User avatar
Michaeljc
 
Posts: 3620
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 3:36 pm
Location: Raglan New Zealand

PreviousNext

Return to Zen Buddhism

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 4 guests

 
RocketTheme Joomla Templates

Who is online

In total there are 5 users online :: 1 registered, 0 hidden and 4 guests (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 157 on Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:44 am

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 4 guests