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Eido Shimano's lineage...

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Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby So-on Mann on Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:07 am

Nonin wrote:genkaku said:
Of course, as I said, there is always Option No. 1 -- to dismiss the whole matter and return to our regularly scheduled programming.

Finally, a sensible course of action!

Hands palm-to-palm,

Nonin


PLEASE.

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Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby Gregory Wonderwheel on Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:12 am

Nevermind wrote:It seems remarkable that you could know that these conclusions are projections. You must know these people extremely well.


Well, there is simply nothing at all remarkable in it. Except in the way that clouds, daffodils, pill bugs, etc. are remarkable.

One doesn't have to know another person "extremely well" to know them and to know their exceptional qualities.

It is simply axiomatic Psychology 101, that any conclusion about the Dharma heirs in Shimano Roshi's lineage based only on Shimano's transgressions--rather than upon the Dharma heir's own manifestation--is a projection.

_/|\_
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Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby Genjo on Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:13 am

Nonin wrote:What is the motivation behind all this interest in Eido Shimano's lineage?


Shinge: "I wonder if you could check something for me? ... I am grateful to be informed about the consensus and any other things you think I need to know. ... This is my vow, to cut all delusive chains, and this is what I teach my students. If what I have been given is based on dishonesty I want to know that, and act accordingly. ... My core value for turning around ZSS is that we must live and train in integrity. I'm afraid this organization has hidden behind 'authentic Rinzai Zen training.' Authenticity? If it's a charade, we need to say so, and with utter humility, make it real."
Last edited by Genjo on Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby Shodo on Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:19 am

Unsui said:
"I was referring to his "verdict" about Zen in the West. "


I see what you mean, but I think his "verdict" was just the problem of teachers who lack valid transmission.

"We really have no idea who Jeff contacted. I find it puzzling that people who haven't met Roko will nullify her as a teacher - and people who have met her as a teacher apparently also find that just as puzzling. If Jeff - and respected Zen Masters in Japan - wish to evaluate those in Eido Shimano's line who currently are teachers, why have they not investigated these people directly? Uff- this is beginning to sound like the Inquisition (and: "Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!").


I think it's really quite simple... In Japan, you cannot be considered a lineage-holding, transmitted teacher if your teacher wasn't transmitted to... And that goes double if the teacher was a teacher as infamous as Eido Shimano.
My personal opinion (which is my own, and I hold it tentatively) is that Jeff Shore's strong language is a reflection of what he was told by whoever he talked to in Japan.

Let's not forget, this is just the karma of Eido Shimano's many lies at long last playing itself out.
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Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby unsui on Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:23 am

Nevermind wrote:
unsui wrote:
Nevermind wrote:
unsui wrote:I don't see how this is preventing further harm to people and I don't see it as a natural progression.

To question or carefully review, not judge prematurely.

Here we agree entirely - and yet I have read "conclusions" about Shinge, Denko, and Genjo - both here, in the archive, and in blogs - that are based on projecting "the sins of the father." And that is prematurely judging.

It seems remarkable that you could know that these conclusions are projections. You must know these people extremely well.

Yes, I know Denko extremely well, so I can sort stuff out here.

I have read Genjo's answers and reactions to some of these things here at ZFI - and even with all the grains of salt I have - the projected "accusations" I have read have satisfactorily been put to rest by Genjo's brutally honest words. Nonin and others have been able to answer for Shinge - and I have chosen to trust them.

None of our teachers are without fault, of course, but I have never experienced Denko mirror Eido Shimano's arrogance or sociopathic tendencies.
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Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby Nevermind on Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:33 am

Gregory Wonderwheel wrote:One doesn't have to know another person "extremely well" to know them and to know their exceptional qualities.

Indeed. Or it can take decades.

It is simply axiomatic Psychology 101, that any conclusion about the Dharma heirs in Shimano Roshi's lineage based only on Shimano's transgressions--rather than upon the Dharma heir's own manifestation--is a projection.

Assuming the conclusion is based only on that. Should we so readily assume that?
Last edited by Nevermind on Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby Spike on Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:34 am

Genjo wrote:
Nonin wrote:What is the motivation behind all this interest in Eido Shimano's lineage?


Shinge: "I wonder if you could check something for me? ...


It is the abbess herself who asks, indirectly, about her own lineage legitimacy. It is beyond me how *some people* do not respect the irony in Genkaku's offering of 'option 1', ie., to refrain from rigorous examination of the matter. By all means, let's hem and haw about the humdrum.
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Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby genkaku on Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:53 am

Nonin wrote:
I personally know three of Eido Shimano's dharma heirs: Shinge, Denko, and Genjo. None of them will have anything personally to do with him.


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Shinge Sherry Chayat (left) and Eido Tai Shimano, Aug. 11-12, 2012
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Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby Nevermind on Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:07 am

unsui wrote:Nonin and others have been able to answer for Shinge - and I have chosen to trust them.


Well, knowing extremely well doesn't seem to be the case. However I don't mean to stir suspicions. The so called sins of the father may make the children more virtuous than might otherwise be the case. It often works out that way.
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Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby Michaeljc on Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:04 am

How important is this formalised, institutionalised lineage when push comes to shove? My observations indicate that in Japan, and for some people in the west - very. However I would make 2 points:

- Evidence substantiating that unbroken lineages glued by face-to-face transmission back through the prior millennium actually exist is not
compelling.

- In Japan being a Zen teacher often results in a secure career for life. In contrast the financial consequences of becoming a teacher in the
west are often precarious.

As Meido pointed out we don’t know what has been transmitted. But, we do know what is supposed to be transmitted: continuity of the thread, (Dogen’s iron rod).

What is being overlooked (IMO) is that the thread (or rod) cannot be broken. It may go into a period of quiescence when authentic transmission is absent but will pop up again all in good time. It does not need face-to-face transmission. Therefore. lineage - aside from authentic transmission - is a quant trapping, We can never know when authentic transmission took place.

So what does this all mean for us students? Well, I will speak for myself. I could not give two hoots about the lineage of a teacher. I’m looking for the Z factor at face value only. If a teacher has a deep relationship with his/her teacher, that is nice but of little importance. Moreover, I don’t care if the teacher is Soto, Rinzai, or Chan. Just give me the real deal.

Just a view in this moment of time

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Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby partofit22 on Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:14 pm

Carol wrote:how we treat each other in troubled times.


this goes to the heart of the matter for me too- Linda once mentioned, in so many words, that there's an art to correcting mistakes by way of making the effort to correct them- however, sometimes in certain situations such efforts can be viewed as arriving too late to alter outcomes- like when a mistake is clung to, or the idea of one, rather than make an effort to arrive at the truth- in this way the mistake is the truth- and that's all there is to it- it's an immortal offense, or dead horse, never to be forgiven or laid to rest even after being beat to a pulp- or glue- and if the horse were to be removed, the remover stands a good chance of becoming the next best thing to beat on-

this whole lineage thing reminds me of how an illegitimate child might possibly be treated as not real-
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Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby partofit22 on Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:27 pm

genkaku wrote:Nonin wrote:
I personally know three of Eido Shimano's dharma heirs: Shinge, Denko, and Genjo. None of them will have anything personally to do with him.


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Shinge Sherry Chayat (left) and Eido Tai Shimano, Aug. 11-12, 2012


what's going on in those photos?
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Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby Denko on Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:41 pm

partofit22 wrote:
genkaku wrote:Nonin wrote:
I personally know three of Eido Shimano's dharma heirs: Shinge, Denko, and Genjo. None of them will have anything personally to do with him.


Image

Image

Shinge Sherry Chayat (left) and Eido Tai Shimano, Aug. 11-12, 2012


what's going on in those photos?

Looks like O-Bon to me - &/or opening/dedicating the new gate?
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Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby genkaku on Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:27 pm

The photos, which are in fact from Obon at Dai Bosatsu, are posted on the Shimano Archive What's New Page (scroll down). Besides Obon, there was a celebration of the opening of the pricey Sanmon Gate that included many of its benefactors.
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Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby Genjo on Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:36 pm

Denko wrote:
partofit22 wrote:what's going on in those photos?

Looks like O-Bon to me - &/or opening/dedicating the new gate?


Yup, see 8/18/12 about half way down @ http://www.shimanoarchive.com/NEWindex.html
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Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby Nonin on Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:46 pm

A short time ago, I spoke with Roko Shinge Chayat, and she asked me to post here that she was shocked to hear that her private e-mail exchange with Jeff Shore, which she regarded as privileged information, was published without her permission. She also said that she hadn't known that it had been published before I told her, for she doesn't read publications that would concern themselves with and publish something like this. Also, she doesn't intend to respond in any way.

Hands palm-to-palm,

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Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby genkaku on Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:20 pm

Nonin -- Thanks very much for what I am forced to assume is Roko Shinge Chayat's authentic transmitted response. It is good to know the emails were indeed hers.

As a matter of honest curiosity regarding the OP, I would be interested in your personal feelings about the matter of lineage. I would like to pose the same question to Denko and Genjo as well. Both you and Denko seem to put some store in lineage since you both mention it in the signatures that are appended to all your posts. You are a "Transmitted Dharma Heir of Dainin Katagiri Roshi" while Denko is a "Transmitted Dharma Heir of Eido Shimano," according to your respective signatures. Genjo does not mention the fact that he received transmission from Eido Shimano in his signature, though I've never thought him purposeful in the omission since, when asked, he is free enough to say the truth.

Based on this small bit of information, I really would like to know what any or all of you thought of transmission/lineage and its usefulness or meaning. Clearly it doesn't mean anything to the cash register attendant in Wal-Mart -- s/he's just waiting for the $3.12 that will cover the can of tuna fish. And the same is true for the plumber or stock broker or traffic cop any of you might come in contact with. And from this I deduce that Zen transmission and lineage means something only to those people who interest themselves in Zen Buddhism... or perhaps, more broadly, Buddhism in general.

I have nothing for or against transmission/lineage, but I would be interested in your straightforward assessment -- your own personal take, so to speak. Clearly lineage or transmission doesn't mean "nothing" because if that were true, there would be no point in mentioning it. So if it means something, what do you personally think it means? Is it like the sign outside the gas station that advertises a "certified mechanic" -- the one who may fix the car or, on occasion, replace the alternator when the water pump is busted? Is it a means of reassuring newcomers and if so, in what way and how truthful do you think such reassurance is? Is the mention of it (whether written or verbal) a means of asserting your own doubts or certainties? Is it a reminder of the wonderful training you received at the hands of those who 'raised' you in Zen? Is lineage/transmission on a par with the importance of "Buddha, Dharma, Sangha," as in, perhaps, "Buddha, Dharma, Lineage?" Is it all too mysterious and mystical to explain ... and if this is so, why dangle it in front of those who are not yet in a position to plumb its mysterious and mystical depths?

I am seriously not trying to make light of any of this. I am just honestly interested in the straightforward, personal assessments of people who seem in a good position to explain forthrightly what this segment of their professional lives might mean.

Thanks very much for any honest responses.
Last edited by genkaku on Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby Nevermind on Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:29 pm

Not sure how this fits with "transmission" but it struck me as meaningful and honest.

Meido wrote:Inka in Rinzai Zen does not signify that a person has finished training at all (and the documents often have words within them affirming that). It only affirms that a person is ready to be responsible for his/her own practice going forward...and hopefully will continue onward diligently.

It may include permission to teach others to some degree. Or prohibitions or conditions on doing so. Permission to train others is not something that is automatically granted with inka, and is not something that is given as a document in my experience.

Incidentally, Inka may also be given to anyone, not just priests. There are many laypersons who receive this recognition as well, and may have no responsibility or authority attached to it since they already have full lives, careers, family and so on.

The title "Roshi" (or "Rokoji" for a layperson) also does not automatically come with inka.

English terms like "Zen Master" are thrown around, of course, which is unfortunate.

Expectations that Zen priests or teachers are necessarily qualified to provide professional pastoral care, spiritual direction, or therapy are also unfortunate. And we should state clearly that we aren't these things (except of course in those cases where a teacher might well be).

I recognize the way in which these things have been manipulated and misinterpreted. It is important for us to clear this up whenever we can. At our place we do so frequently and openly, and do our best to affirm that Zen teachers are to be viewed as nothing more than experienced peers.

~ Meido
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Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby genkaku on Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:35 pm

Thanks Nevermind. I agree -- Meido's description is nice. I do sort of hope that others will give a more this-is-the-way-I-personally-see-it approach.
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Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby Genjo on Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:54 am

genkaku wrote:As a matter of honest curiosity regarding the OP, I would be interested in your personal feelings about the matter of lineage. I would like to pose the same question to Denko and Genjo as well. ...

Based on this small bit of information, I really would like to know what any or all of you thought of transmission/lineage and its usefulness or meaning....
Clearly lineage or transmission doesn't mean "nothing" because if that were true, there would be no point in mentioning it. So if it means something, what do you personally think it means? Is it like the sign outside the gas station that advertises a "certified mechanic" ...

I am seriously not trying to make light of any of this. I am just honestly interested in the straightforward, personal assessments of people who seem in a good position to explain forthrightly what this segment of their professional lives might mean.


I've already posted in this blog/topic my take on this subject ...

" we should all know, Zen transmission does not transmit anything! Transmission may be said to mean that the person who is being transmitted to is confident enough in their own true nature to know that nothing is transmitted. On the practical side, these days, in the Rinzai tradition at least, it means that the proscribed koan curriculum has been completed, and that the authorizing agent believes that the one receiving transmission has a good chance of passing the tradition on."

Here is a verse that came to me in zazen in July of 2006...

The Buddha, Dharma and Sangha are all empty.
What is there to treasure?
There is nothing to attain.
What can be transmitted?
Digesting entanglements,
Body and Mind are set free.
Nothing to do but listen to the thunder
And follow the wind.

As far as the lineage goes, I am grateful to the lineage for being a catalyst to this kind of opening. I fully recognize that some of the lineage is a mythological composite of characters making a supposed unbroken line to the Historical Buddha; however, this is of no importance to me. Ordination papers and transmission lineage papers are of no importance to me. In depth psychology one knows the client is ready for termination when he or she knows what you as the therapist is going to say and there is nothing more to be said. To me this is a kind of mind to mind "transmission" where nothing is really transmitted. No papers are necessary, but there may well be a transition closing session of some sort, which would correspond to the Zen transmission ceremony, where the spontaneity and clarity of the one "receiving" transmission is tested by peers and teachers.

I hope I haven't offended anyone by this account.
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