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Eido Shimano's lineage...

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Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby Shodo on Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:01 am

Well, I am sure everyone here has seen the "Shimano Archive"... I read through it quite a few times and I have a serious question about lineage.

I have seen numerous places that have stated something to the effect of "Eido Shimano was given Dharma Transmission by Soen Nakagawa in a public ceremony in 1972", but something I read in the archives seems to contradict this history.

Robert Aitken Roshi, had heard "rumors" that Eido Shimano never received transmission (or had had his transmission revoked by Soen), so he went to Japan to inquire about this in 1984... this is what he found:

http://www.shimanoarchive.com/PDFs/1984 ... Kiefer.pdf

And further along in the archives this would seem to be corroborated by the lineage charts. Here is the lineage chart from Soen Nakagawa's temple, Ryutaku-ji (scroll to the bottom, unless you can read Japanese)

http://www.shimanoarchive.com/PDFs/2010 ... ineage.pdf

And here is the lineage chart from Daitoku-ji

http://www.shimanoarchive.com/PDFs/2010 ... ineage.pdf

What I gather from this, is that Eido Roshi is *not* a Roshi... Not an heir of Soen.
What does this mean?
What does this mean for the heirs of Eido...?
"Before Arda you were, but others also, and you did not make it. Neither are you the most mighty; for you have spent your strength upon yourself, and wasted it on your own emptiness. No more are you now than an escaped thrall of the Valar, and their chain still awaits you."
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Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby Shodo on Tue Nov 23, 2010 5:29 pm

I know this is a touchy subject loaded with landmines - but doesn't anyone have anything to say?
"Before Arda you were, but others also, and you did not make it. Neither are you the most mighty; for you have spent your strength upon yourself, and wasted it on your own emptiness. No more are you now than an escaped thrall of the Valar, and their chain still awaits you."
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Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby Carol on Tue Nov 23, 2010 6:24 pm

I do. A teacher's lineage is not so important has his or her conduct.

I'm not much impressed by rumors or speculations about so-and-so's transmission. There have been fine teachers whose transmission or lack of it has been called into question. I'm also certain that historically such things have happened many times over the centuries when teachers became angry with or disappointed in their dharma heirs. Such is human nature. Still the teaching has come down to us through all that ... for which I am grateful.

:Namaste:
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Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby simpleton on Tue Nov 23, 2010 6:59 pm

I don't see why this has to be a touchy subject - assuming we're still allowed to speak honestly on forums like this.

I am surprised at Carols post that reads to me like support of Shimano as a teacher.

Shodo's post & documents are just further evidence (as if it were needed!) that if we want to study authentic Zen, we should choose our teachers (and lineage) with care. This advice is especially pertinent if we train in the west.
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Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby Carol on Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:16 pm

simpleton wrote:I don't see why this has to be a touchy subject - assuming we're still allowed to speak honestly on forums like this.

I am surprised at Carols post that reads to me like support of Shimano as a teacher.

Shodo's post & documents are just further evidence (as if it were needed!) that if we want to study authentic Zen, we should choose our teachers (and lineage) with care. This advice is especially pertinent if we train in the west.


I believe Eido Shimano's conduct disqualifies him as a teacher, as I've said elsewhere.

Rumors about his lineage don't make or unmake "authentic" Zen to me. There are teachers with unquestioned lineage whose Zen may be someone questionable these days. There are teachers whose lineage may be questionable (like Phillip Kapleau, and his dharma heirs) whose Zen is quite "authentic." So that's just not the telling criteria for me.
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Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby Nonin on Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:32 pm

Although Eido Shimano's sexual misconduct was reprehensible, he trained some excellent priests who are now excellent teachers.

I know three of his dharma heirs quite well -- Roko Chayat, Genjo Marinello, and Denko Mortensen -- and I wouldn't hesitate to recommend them to those seeking a teacher. I also wouldn't hesitate sending my own students to study with either of them.

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Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby simpleton on Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:57 pm

I believe Eido Shimano's conduct disqualifies him as a teacher, as I've said elsewhere.

Carol, Apologies for taking your first comment out of context.
Last edited by simpleton on Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby simpleton on Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:05 pm

Nonin,

I've also met & trained with some people in that lineage, inclusive of at least one "dharma heir". I have nothing against those people (hence will not name names etc), but from a perspective of Zen training I was frankly not impressed. I would not recommend.

Each to their own.
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Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby Shodo on Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:18 pm

Carol wrote:
I'm not much impressed by rumors or speculations about so-and-so's transmission.

:Namaste:


As far as I can tell, this is neither rumor or speculation.

Even Andy Jiro Afable acknowledges it (One of Eido's dharma heirs):

"At this point the documents that are in public view make revelations that are cumulatively impossible to explain or defend, and the significantly alter perceptions of the "history of transmission" depicted in Namu Dai Bosa."

And later he says:

"The lineage itself will be seen as problematic."

http://www.shimanoarchive.com/PDFs/2010 ... _Board.pdf
"Before Arda you were, but others also, and you did not make it. Neither are you the most mighty; for you have spent your strength upon yourself, and wasted it on your own emptiness. No more are you now than an escaped thrall of the Valar, and their chain still awaits you."
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Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby Jok_Hae on Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:56 pm

Shodo wrote:
Carol wrote:
I'm not much impressed by rumors or speculations about so-and-so's transmission.

:Namaste:


As far as I can tell, this is neither rumor or speculation.

Even Andy Jiro Afable acknowledges it (One of Eido's dharma heirs):

"At this point the documents that are in public view make revelations that are cumulatively impossible to explain or defend, and the significantly alter perceptions of the "history of transmission" depicted in Namu Dai Bosa."

And later he says:

"The lineage itself will be seen as problematic."

http://www.shimanoarchive.com/PDFs/2010 ... _Board.pdf


So now what?
You make, you get

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Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby Shodo on Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:43 pm

So now what?


I don't know...
What would usually happen if there was a teacher with a 40 year history of improprieties with his students... who said they had transmission but that was discovered to be a lie - but who had been appointing thier own teachers?

What would folks say if this person had been a nobody? Just some person who had ebayed their robes?
What is supposed to happen now?
"Before Arda you were, but others also, and you did not make it. Neither are you the most mighty; for you have spent your strength upon yourself, and wasted it on your own emptiness. No more are you now than an escaped thrall of the Valar, and their chain still awaits you."
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Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby Nonin on Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:44 pm

Some people say that Eido-roshi's transmission from Soen Nakagawa is suspect. Some say it was complete. Some say that Eido Shimano went through dharma transmission with another teacher before he studied with Soen-roshi. I, like Carol, am not interested in either speculation or rumor or debating about the subject. Eido Shimano transmitted a handful of teachers, and they will carry on the lineage, whatever that may be. They are all recognized by other Zen teachers, Rinzai and Soto, and are full members of the American Zen Teachers' Association (AZTA).

Kapleau-roshi was never fully transmitted by Yasutani-roshi, but established himself as the progenitor of a vibrant lineage. His main dharma heir, Bodhin Kjolhede, has established himself as a respected teacher and has transmitted his own disciples. All are recognized by their peers both in and out of the AZTA.

There are many ways to complete dharma transmission, say, when the original teacher dies or there is a break between master and disciple. Sometimes the master will disown a disciple for spurious reasons, especially when the master gets old and decrepit. I've seen this happen. What's important in these cases is that the disciple either complete his or her training with another master or continue the tradition even if there is a break between her or him and the master.

As a sidelight, even though his transmission with Kapleau-roshi was complete, Bodhin Kjolhede wanted to complete the koan curriculum that Philip Kapleau didn't complete with Yasutani. Bodhin's disciple, Sevan Ross, had completed the curriculum with James Ford, a teacher in the Kennett-roshi and Sanbo Kyodan lineages, so Bodhin then completed the curriculum with Sevan. This is somewhat un-orthodox, studying under your disciple, but it worked in this case and linked Bodhin with Yasutani in a roundabout way.

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Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby just on Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:08 am

I am sorry to add anything here, it is very difficult. There are many students, monks and teachers that are in the line of Eido's teaching. So it is a big burden on them, the persons involved and the whole community
that follow within this group, especially the women that were the target.
So it is obvious that my remarks will be out of line.
First:
There is a student, who is very inspired in the way, and who advances to become a teacher under Eido's approval. He may have worked hard, more than we can imagine, given his best, his all, and finally saw results of his practice. So Eido was his teacher.

A dilemma comes out: The student, now a Roshi, thinks: this man helped me, questioned me, spurred me on, this man had good intentions for me, he tried to show me the tradition of enlightened life...
He is my good angel, my benefactor , my teacher.
Unfortunately, the man was a sex addict.
Without questioning the place:dokusan room, the place the innermost Zen teachings are communicated,
the time, sesshins were the nice field, and no thought as to the personal damage to the women involved,
people in truth, and breath and wider still.

So to those who have been made practitioners, followers, stream enterers, teachers under Eido, a big question holds:
I was helped so much, but he fucked up so many, real people, and so much of his previous history, in dharma terms.

Now i am a made man, the teachers and practitioners think, but with the help of a man, a teacher, a delegated emissary of the Jap Roshi, so so much invested, seen and done...


WHAT NOW!?

Are you the offspring of Eido or of the Buddha Dharma?
Disown the man, now, at once, and accept that you were guilty too.
Yes, The teachers that held a closed eye- say you are sorry!
the students-- say you are sorry for not raising the question!

We dont see no fault, there is none, who are you fooling...

And was there any truth in any behavior, Aitken would have spit in his face and thrown him out into the streets. None of this would have happened. But sadly, soft hearts, many hopes, given over to posterity to solve. even still, he is still representing.

Forget the bugger Eido.
Zen Buddhism is absolutely not in the least dependent on such names as Eido, even not on much biger and truer what names there are.

And where is the man who will disown Eido as his teacher, accept, understand, apologize, and still stay strong, his own master...
the thing true teachers have in mind, contrary to f'ups like Eido.

Please excuse me for so much bs. im sorry.
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Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby Jok_Hae on Wed Nov 24, 2010 2:04 am

Shodo wrote:
So now what?


I don't know...
What would usually happen if there was a teacher with a 40 year history of improprieties with his students... who said they had transmission but that was discovered to be a lie - but who had been appointing thier own teachers?

What would folks say if this person had been a nobody? Just some person who had ebayed their robes?
What is supposed to happen now?


People will make choices. Some will choose to learn from his successors. Some will not. That's their call, not ours.
You make, you get

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Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby Jundo Cohen on Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:35 am

I am sure that if one digs deep enough into any of our blood families, there will be black sheep, babies born out of wedlock, scandals, skeletons in the closet. I've heard that my maternal grandfather was a real son-of-a-bitch, prone to use his fists and the like.

I'm not.

One cannot always judge the children by the parents.

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Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby Shodo on Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:05 pm

Would he (and his successors) been accepted if the above information had been known back in 1972?

If lineage does matter then shouldn't somebody find out if Eido Shimano is actually a dharma heir of Soen?

If lineage does not matter then why does the AZTA even matter?
"Before Arda you were, but others also, and you did not make it. Neither are you the most mighty; for you have spent your strength upon yourself, and wasted it on your own emptiness. No more are you now than an escaped thrall of the Valar, and their chain still awaits you."
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Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby Nonin on Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:07 pm

Moderator's Note: Please remain on topic, which in this case is Eido Shimano's lineage and what happens to it now. Posts that veer into meta-discussions will be removed.

There is a long, involved thread about Eido Shimano's sexual misconduct and what ZSS is doing about it now. If you want to discuss this or make statements about it, please post to that thread. It's titled "Sexual Misconduct by Buddhist Teachers and it's in the Modern Zen Teachers forum under Teachers and Sanghas.

Hands palm-to-palm,

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Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby Nonin on Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:40 pm

Shodo asked:
Would he (and his successors) been accepted if the above information had been known back in 1972?

Eido Shimano is not and hasn't ever been a member of the AZTA.

Also, the above information is not definitive. The papers shown are not formal lineage papers given from master to disciple. They are informal lineage diagrams that only show Soen Nakagawa's formal, public dharma heirs, whom I assume were given inka, which is full transmission in that tradition. In Rinzai Zen, you can be a fully authorized teacher without full transmission, or at least that's my understanding of it. For instance, Sasaki-roshi has authorized about a dozen of his dharma heirs to teach independently. None of them have received inka, but some are AZTA members. It's different in Soto Zen, which is the only tradition that I can speak definitively about.

The only way to know Eido Shimano's lineage is through his lineage papers. I haven't seen them, and I assume that you haven't either, so we are discussing something that neither of us has definitive information about and are only speculating. There are members of this board who may have definitive info about this, but they are not participating on this thread.

Hands palm-to-palm,

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Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby Denko on Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:47 pm

Shodo wrote:Well, I am sure everyone here has seen the "Shimano Archive"... I read through it quite a few times and I have a serious question about lineage.

I have seen numerous places that have stated something to the effect of "Eido Shimano was given Dharma Transmission by Soen Nakagawa in a public ceremony in 1972", but something I read in the archives seems to contradict this history.

Robert Aitken Roshi, had heard "rumors" that Eido Shimano never received transmission (or had had his transmission revoked by Soen), so he went to Japan to inquire about this in 1984... this is what he found:

http://www.shimanoarchive.com/PDFs/1984 ... Kiefer.pdf

And further along in the archives this would seem to be corroborated by the lineage charts. Here is the lineage chart from Soen Nakagawa's temple, Ryutaku-ji (scroll to the bottom, unless you can read Japanese)

http://www.shimanoarchive.com/PDFs/2010 ... ineage.pdf

And here is the lineage chart from Daitoku-ji

http://www.shimanoarchive.com/PDFs/2010 ... ineage.pdf

What I gather from this, is that Eido Roshi is *not* a Roshi... Not an heir of Soen.
What does this mean?
What does this mean for the heirs of Eido...?

Well.

The Robert Aitken 'thing' doesn't really mean/disprove anything.

The Ryutakuji lineage chart is somewhat troublesome.

The Daitokuji thing will not open in acroread, so I don't know.

On the other hand: There is a picture of the traditionally give scroll at the inka ceremony, "Done!", on page 133 in the book "ENDLESS VOW" which says (besides "done!"): "To Mui Shitsu from Mitta Kutsu September 5, 1972 for official acknowledgement of inka."

This scroll (on occations at least) used to hang in the dokusan room at New York Zendo.
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Re: Eido Shimano's lineage...

Postby Nonin on Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:23 pm

Denko,

I have the book and have looked at the calligraphy. The stamps and the signature say that it was done by Soen Nakagawa, so this would be his acknowledgment of Eido Shimano as his dharma heir.

As an aside, in Soto Zen we are given lineage papers (ketchimyaku) when dharma transmission is completed. Are there similar papers given in Rinzai Zen when disciples are authorized to teach (I don't know what the term is for this) or when inka (the seal of dharma transmission) is given? Or, is the scroll the only official acknowledgment of inka?

Hands palm-to-palm,

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