realize what?

[davidroberts]

Hello everyone, i am new here to this forum ,after having read many books on zen it seems that on the one hand
we are being encouraged to realize that:
1. there is nothing to realize
and on the other hand to realize that:
2. all is one

This seems to be a contradiction, or are they actually saying the same thing?
I would be greatful for any comments especially from any Zen Masters amoung you.

Thanks
David Roberts

[Dan74]

Hi David,

Not a Zen master by any stretch of imagination (even mine!) but books on Zen can give one a wrong impression that it's intellectual gymnastics of some sort, which your words seems to indicate to me. Most of the fellows I used to visit in prison didn't need to be convinced that there was nothing to realize and many have experienced the "all is one" in more than one trip of whatever drug of choice they happened to use. Still they were as messed up as can be and possibly even further from any sort of realization than me (although that's debatable).

Zen is said to be realizing our Original Nature, whatever that is. So a good starting point is to try to get acquainted with the mind we think we know by sitting still on a cushion and trying to keep attention on our breathing.

It's a funny thing but most of us think (or thought) that we can attain enlightenment before we learn to properly carry out basic responsibilities of our lives, live morally and engage with our environment in an open and compassionate way. But what good would such enlightenment be? What would it even mean?

I might be completely off the mark as far as your enquiry is concerned but perhaps you can elaborate and one of our resident Zen masters can satisfy you?

_/|\_

[genkaku]

Hi David. Welcome to the forum. I hope you find something useful here.

Zen Buddhism offers a format for your peaceful life. That's 'offers,' not 'demands.' Some accept the offer. Some do not. Your life, your choice. Newcomers naturally look for some place to hang their hat -- to excite a sense of credibility -- when investigating any new format. So, on what hook might anyone hang their hat when it comes to Zen Buddhism? Will it be on "nothing to realize" or perhaps "all is one?" That sounds a little flimsy to me, but that's just my taste. "Nothing to realize" or "everything is one" may be tantalizing and it may even be true, but as a practical matter it's a bit wishy-washy ... emotionally and intellectually inviting, perhaps, but as a place to hang your hat, there is little or no 'there' there.

If you have to pick a hook on which to hang your hat, I think I would pick the hook marked, "Find out for yourself." Your very own experience is the thing that is likely to be most credible, most convincing. Books cannot accomplish what experience teaches. A lot of people agree and even delight in the invitation to "find out for yourself" because it makes sense. The downside is that in order to find out for yourself, you have to do the work, make an actual-factual effort, and not everyone is so delighted with that.

Anyway, if "find out for yourself" is taken as the starting point for an interest in Buddhism, then such suggestions as "nothing to realize" or "everything is one" fall into the category of pointers and suggestions for the student. Whether succulent or terrifying, contradictory or complementary, still we all have to find out for ourselves ... assuming Buddhism is to be more than another intellectual Tinker Toy. It is the experience, the actualization, of "nothing to realize" or "everything is one" that tells the tale ... and the rest falls into the category of encouragement and beer parties.

But don't trust me. Find out for yourself.

Just my take.

[Cafael Dust]

Zen is full of contradictions. It's ridiculous and pointless but it works. One text says one thing, another says another: you can't shoot fish in a barrel by aiming at the same place every time.

[Shonin]

It seems to me that Zen is about waking up to things just as they are, being present.

Realisation has two meanings in English and both of them apply in slightly different ways to Buddhist practice, which may lead to some confusion.

1. to understand or have insight into something
2. to actualise, to make real

When we are present to things as they are, some of our delusions may fall away or be seen clearly at least and this can be experienced as 'realising something' in the sense of having an insight such as 'everything is one', 'there is nothing to realise', 'the self is constructed', 'everything is impermanent' etc. But these too are constructed, provisional insights, valuable in a sense perhaps, but not to be grasped as final truths.

But, this ongoing activity of being awake is itself the actualisation of the dharma.

[booker]

Hello everyone, i am new here to this forum ,after having read many books on zen it seems that on the one hand
we are being encouraged to realize that:
1. there is nothing to realize
and on the other hand to realize that:
2. all is one

This seems to be a contradiction, or are they actually saying the same thing?
I would be greatful for any comments especially from any Zen Masters amoung you.

Heya David.

I'm not a Zen Master, but you know...there's this time when books are not enough, the understanding reaches its limits and some practice is necessary.

Also, having a touch with a live Master won't hurt

Best of luck

[shoey]

Hi David,

Not a Zen master by any stretch of imagination (even mine!) but books on Zen can give one a wrong impression that it's intellectual gymnastics of some sort, which your words seems to indicate to me. Most of the fellows I used to visit in prison didn't need to be convinced that there was nothing to realize and many have experienced the "all is one" in more than one trip of whatever drug of choice they happened to use. Still they were as messed up as can be and possibly even further from any sort of realization than me (although that's debatable).

Zen is said to be realizing our Original Nature, whatever that is. So a good starting point is to try to get acquainted with the mind we think we know by sitting still on a cushion and trying to keep attention on our breathing.
It's a funny thing but most of us think (or thought) that we can attain enlightenment before we learn to properly carry out basic responsibilities of our lives, live morally and engage with our environment in an open and compassionate way. But what good would such enlightenment be? What would it even mean?

I might be completely off the mark as far as your enquiry is concerned but perhaps you can elaborate and one of our resident Zen masters can satisfy you?

_/|\_

Zen Master Dogen says to study the way is to study the self......
you say the same/similar to me.
i'll take that advice from you both.thank you.




hello david and warm welcome

[davidroberts]

Thank you all for taking the time to consider my question. I get the point that reading about zen
is not enough. Think i'm gonna give up zen and do zazen instead.

[genkaku]

Thank you all for taking the time to consider my question. I get the point that reading about zen
is not enough. Think i'm gonna give up zen and do zazen instead.

Hey David -- In Zen, we don't give up anything ... ever. But it is true that we practice a little zazen.

[Nonin]

Hello everyone, i am new here to this forum ,after having read many books on zen it seems that on the one hand
we are being encouraged to realize that:
1. there is nothing to realize
and on the other hand to realize that:
2. all is one

This seems to be a contradiction, or are they actually saying the same thing?
I would be greatful for any comments especially from any Zen Masters amoung you.

Thanks
David Roberts

David,

You said that:

we are being encouraged to realize that:
1. there is nothing to realize

In Zen Buddhist practice, we are encouraged to realize, or see into, our true nature.

and, you say:

and on the other hand to realize that:
2. all is one

Relatively, you are you and I am I. Absolutely, we are not two. Our true nature -- suchness, things as they are -- encompasses both.

Hands palm-to-palm,

Nonin

[Nonin]

Thank you all for taking the time to consider my question. I get the point that reading about zen
is not enough. Think i'm gonna give up zen and do zazen instead.

Excellent idea. Please find a good teacher and practice under her or his guidance.

There is more to Zen Buddhist practice than zazen, although it is our core practice. There is also kinhin (walking meditation), devotional practice (chanting, bowing, ritual, and ceremony), work practice, art practice, and to some extent, academic study. My training encompassed all of the above, and we practice all of the above at our temple.

Also, to practice Zen Buddhism, there are three essentials: sitting regularly, practicing under the guidance of a teacher, and connecting with and practicing with a group. Perhaps if you let people here know where you live, they can recommend a practice place and a teacher in your area. There are also on-line databases that are a big help.

Hands palm-to-palm,

Nonin

[FaDao]

Thank you all for taking the time to consider my question. I get the point that reading about zen
is not enough. Think i'm gonna give up zen and do zazen instead.

Excellent idea. Please find a good teacher and practice under her or his guidance.

There is more to Zen Buddhist practice than zazen, although it is our core practice. There is also kinhin (walking meditation), devotional practice (chanting, bowing, ritual, and ceremony), work practice, art practice, and to some extent, academic study. My training encompassed all of the above, and we practice all of the above at our temple.

Also, to practice Zen Buddhism, there are three essentials: sitting regularly, practicing under the guidance of a teacher, and connecting with and practicing with a group. Perhaps if you let people here know where you live, they can recommend a practice place and a teacher in your area. There are also on-line databases that are a big help.

Hands palm-to-palm,

Nonin

Life practice -- how, in this moment, do I apply the dhamma to my next decision?

Seek a teacher who is a guide rather than a parent. Find fellow travelers who are friends along the way. Ask of them and give to them. Start the day with a clear mind and end the day with a clear mind.

Chop wood, carry water, learn and share knowledge.

It really is that simple.

Namo Amitofo
- Fa Dao -

[lungshan]

My teacher once said to me during dokusan, as I struggled, spinning my wheels with the koan MU: "You know, you really should be getting this by now." I was flabbergasted. Simply flabbergasted. I actually screamed at him: "getting WHAT!?!?!?" He just laughed.

[booker]

Simplest things are most difficult, nay?

[davidroberts]

Relatively, you are you and I am I. Absolutely, we are not two. Our true nature -- suchness, things as they are -- encompasses both.

Thankyou Nonin for a clear and concise answer to my question

[chapelvines]

I think we are supposed to realize that there is nothing to realize.