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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby bokki on Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:55 am

and finaly it seems as if rev j threw a bone and had a laugh, went left field and anounced "im going to make my own site!", while we cant even use a bone to chew on and do something!!! creative!....LOL silent sitters LOL
but maybe a post or two a day on the whole forum is just ur cup of tea..lol
silent siting ha ha ha
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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby [james] on Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:39 am

bokki wrote:and finaly it seems as if rev j threw a bone and had a laugh, went left field and anounced "im going to make my own site!", while we cant even use a bone to chew on and do something!!! creative!....LOL silent sitters LOL
but maybe a post or two a day on the whole forum is just ur cup of tea..lol
silent siting ha ha ha


You having a meltdown there?
Patience, good sir!
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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby bokki on Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:34 pm

You having a meltdown there?

yes James that was a bit...lol
Patience..

thnx for ur reasonable and kind stance, and words..
ps got meself a brand new, second hand..lol..laptop! no more cooking coffee on it, and midtyping breakdowns! ill b posting more!
b
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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby Michaeljc on Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:56 am

My observation is that forums have a life (and maybe death) and evolution of their own

This place is of no exception

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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby bokki on Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:20 am

Sir, your everyday life, from morning to dusk, is in total opposition to the “deep” insight and “wisdom” you profess about impermanence.

Lightly said, if a sheep was sick, will u call a vet, or kill it on the spot?

Why feed it in the first place, if it’s going to die anyway?

Further, since it’s going to die anyway, and you don’t think it’s wise to feed it, why not kill it now, and kindly not let her starve to a slow death?

Sir, why not just be the proud owner of zfi, and keep your musings about impermanence to yourself, or at least look at what you do every day to nourish the hungry sick and dying? Plants, sheep, people?

Sir, your “wisdom” is in total opposition to the everyday effort you make.

If that is your “wise” stance, why, I’ll pick up the tab, and a few friends of mine if they want to, so we don’t have to react to indecision and depressing zen sickness, and waste our time filling unimportant threads…..since the owner is so “wise” about impermanence.

LOL now i am really surprised...didn't see this coming, but...oh,well.
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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby Dan74 on Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:54 am

Bokki, your answer assumes that Michael, as the owner, is in a position to change things. This is not necessarily the case and depends whether he has just picked up the tab or also has a real say in the way things are run.

If it's the former, this may be just his attempt to reconcile himself to the status quo that he cannot do much about.

But be that as it may, we should be careful not to assume too much. Or of we do, give people the benefit of doubt.

_/|\_
Last edited by Dan74 on Wed Jul 12, 2017 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby bokki on Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:59 pm

Yes,Sir,i assume
that Michael, as the owner, is in a position to change things.

why why why is
this may be just his attempt to reconcile himself to the status quo that he cannot do much about.

the gent is the owner,the founders have stepped down 4 life true reasons.
But be that as it may, we should be careful not to assume too much. Or of we do, give people the benefit of doubt.

thnx 4 ur kind words, Dan,and i mean it. and a big sorry 2 Michael, i go a bit overboard.
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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby [james] on Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:09 pm

Back on page 6 of this thread:

michaeljc wrote:I will now lay it all on the table

Given the privileges structure of this forum it is Gregory who is at the controls. As long as he is not prepared to enter discussions nothing can change. "Privilege" means who can push which button in the system.

Gregory and Carol were the "Founders". They cannot be removed by any party but can remove any other party, therefore holding ultimate veto.

There is one more ultimate power: the "owner" who is the one who signed the cheque for annual service fees. This happens to be me. The only extreme action I can take is to close the site down by cancelling it at any time. Short of an event such as the site becoming politically extreme this is something I would never do.

I did have considerable privileges on first getting involved in the management structure but decided to surrender these. Come January I will be sending Gregory the passwords to renew subscription. Going on the lead up to the last subscription he may decide to let it die.


I, for one, would much appreciate some clarification of these statements. Why do the founders hold ultimate veto and why does control of the ultimate fate of ZFI not rest with the current owner? Did you, Michael, have this control earlier on and is this control among the privileges that you surrendered back to the "Founders"? Are the Founders obstructing you in making changes to ZFI that you might wish to put forward? Is there a conflict between you, the Owner, and Gregory and Carol, the Founders, that is an obstacle in some way?

Like bokki, I am also starting to wonder if this thread is worth continuing. People can suggest all manner of ways to revive, revitalize, or otherwise improve the form and content of ZFI. However if it cannot go anywhere due to backstage realities what's the point.

Has the fate of ZFI already been decided?
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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby Dan74 on Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:52 pm

A few days ago I wrote to Gregory with very similar questions to these, James. I just saw that he hasn't seen the message yet. I may try to contact him in other ways.

_/|\_
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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby Spike on Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:55 pm

michaeljc wrote:I will now lay it all on the table

Given the privileges structure of this forum it is Gregory who is at the controls. As long as he is not prepared to enter discussions nothing can change. "Privilege" means who can push which button in the system.

Gregory and Carol were the "Founders". They cannot be removed by any party but can remove any other party, therefore holding ultimate veto. ..

I did have considerable privileges on first getting involved in the management structure but decided to surrender these. Come January I will be sending Gregory the passwords to renew subscription. Going on the lead up to the last subscription he may decide to let it die.


[james] wrote:I, for one, would much appreciate some clarification of these statements. Why do the founders hold ultimate veto and why does control of the ultimate fate of ZFI not rest with the current owner? Did you, Michael, have this control earlier on and is this control among the privileges that you surrendered back to the "Founders"? Are the Founders obstructing you in making changes to ZFI that you might wish to put forward? Is there a conflict between you, the Owner, and Gregory and Carol, the Founders, that is an obstacle in some way?


The breakdown on The Team page, /memberlist.php?mode=leaders, shows the org structure relative to status and privileges. Michaeljc cannot be obstructed because he has no change privileges as a Registered User.


[james] wrote:Like bokki, I am also starting to wonder if this thread is worth continuing. People can suggest all manner of ways to revive, revitalize, or otherwise improve the form and content of ZFI. However if it cannot go anywhere due to backstage realities what's the point.


My understanding is that bokki is fighting hard for it to continue.

[james] wrote:Has the fate of ZFI already been decided?


The impending default fate seems to have been. However, someone else might want to audition for the owner/administrator role before the January deadline, should it then, indeed, be available. In the meantime, imo, Gregory owes no explanation for anything.

In the meantime, perhaps each should offer 100 bows to Gregory and Carol for going this distance.
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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby flutemaker on Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:56 pm

[james] wrote:Back on page 6 of this thread:

michaeljc wrote:I will now lay it all on the table

Given the privileges structure of this forum it is Gregory who is at the controls. As long as he is not prepared to enter discussions nothing can change. "Privilege" means who can push which button in the system.

Gregory and Carol were the "Founders". They cannot be removed by any party but can remove any other party, therefore holding ultimate veto.

There is one more ultimate power: the "owner" who is the one who signed the cheque for annual service fees. This happens to be me. The only extreme action I can take is to close the site down by cancelling it at any time. Short of an event such as the site becoming politically extreme this is something I would never do.

I did have considerable privileges on first getting involved in the management structure but decided to surrender these. Come January I will be sending Gregory the passwords to renew subscription. Going on the lead up to the last subscription he may decide to let it die.


I, for one, would much appreciate some clarification of these statements. Why do the founders hold ultimate veto and why does control of the ultimate fate of ZFI not rest with the current owner? Did you, Michael, have this control earlier on and is this control among the privileges that you surrendered back to the "Founders"? Are the Founders obstructing you in making changes to ZFI that you might wish to put forward? Is there a conflict between you, the Owner, and Gregory and Carol, the Founders, that is an obstacle in some way?

Like bokki, I am also starting to wonder if this thread is worth continuing. People can suggest all manner of ways to revive, revitalize, or otherwise improve the form and content of ZFI. However if it cannot go anywhere due to backstage realities what's the point.

Has the fate of ZFI already been decided?


The master administration account on the dns hosting servers gives the power to discard or move elsewhere the website address pointer while the master administration account on the website hosting server gives the power to edit the website content including rearranging the forum database roles at will irrespective of the forum phpbb administration panel which has the founders role assigned to the actual founders being Gregory and Carol.

The said founders from within the phpbb forum administration panel have power to reassign or revoke the forum regular administration permissions.

From the position of hosting Michel stands well above the founders.

From within the role of the founder they stand above Michael forum-wise. Both ethically and technically.

The degree of complications of the interrelationship of the above is beyond verbal description and is in the domain of Astral spheres.
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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby Michaeljc on Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:31 pm

I want to make very clear that there has been no dispute or friction between myself and the founders Carol and Gregory. As far as I am concerned it is their forum and should remain so

The record shows that there was once a much larger admin and moderating team. It also shows that this was problematic, taking up extensive time and energy in attempting to gain consensus over various issues. It also appears as though most of the team left voluntarily. Such is the nature of a forum IMO. It is largely a thankless task

I also reverted to being a basic member voluntarily, deciding not to be involved in admin or moderating. I feel that Doug is doing a fine job in his post and that taking everything into consideration the forum is doing OK

FM has summarised the structure of the forum very well above

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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby [james] on Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:07 am

Spike wrote:The breakdown on The Team page, /memberlist.php?mode=leaders, shows the org structure relative to status and privileges. Michaeljc cannot be obstructed because he has no change privileges as a Registered User.

Michael had acquired those privileges when he became "owner" and surrendered them, returned them to Carol and Gregory at some point soon after.

Spike wrote:My understanding is that bokki is fighting hard for it to continue.

He is. He has also expressed his doubts as to whether it is a useful effort

Spike wrote:The impending default fate seems to have been. However, someone else might want to audition for the owner/administrator role before the January deadline, should it then, indeed, be available. In the meantime, imo, Gregory owes no explanation for anything.

No one 'owes' anyone anything here (not explanations and not a hundred bows) and yet clarification would be useful. Someone else who might want to audition might also want to know what they are stepping into. Are there criteria to be met before receiving the ZFI bowl and staff?
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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby [james] on Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:30 am

Michaeljc wrote:....As far as I am concerned it is their forum and should remain so.

I just don't get this. Why does this forum remain the property of certain individuals? In the development and evolution of a 'Zen' 'Buddhist' discussion and perhaps practice forum can it not be in the realm of possibility that a way will be formulated to transfer 'ownership' to the current and future participants? In fact I had hoped that such was perhaps beginning back in December 2016 - January 2017 when ownership and direction was about to be transferred to you.
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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby Spike on Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:43 am

[james] wrote:
Michaeljc wrote:....As far as I am concerned it is their forum and should remain so.

I just don't get this. Why does this forum remain the property of certain individuals? In the development and evolution of a 'Zen' 'Buddhist' discussion and perhaps practice forum can it not be in the realm of possibility that a way will be formulated to transfer 'ownership' to the current and future participants? In fact I had hoped that such was the case back in December 2016.


Sounds frustrating that this is such a head-scratcher for you.

The easy and obvious solution is for you to own your own forum, with the help of like-minded individuals. How hard can that be? Not like the kind of decade-long effort to create and maintain this one is such a big deal or merits bows.
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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby [james] on Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:49 am

Spike wrote:Sounds frustrating that this is such a head-scratcher for you.

The easy and obvious solution is for you to own your own forum, with the help of like-minded individuals. How hard can that be? Not like the kind of decade-long effort to create and maintain this one is such a big deal or merits bows.

It is something of a head-scratcher though not particularly frustrating.

And the decade long effort to create and maintain this forum, or any worthwhile endeavor, is not a big deal, really, if that is what one wants to do. It is simply day to day, rewarding and challenging in equal and unequal measure. Not a thankless task at all. In fact anyone involved in such a project will often find themself giving thanks for the opportunity to be so engaged.

But, inevitably, the time arrives when one cannot continue. So what to do? My impression, from past discussions and statements made by Carol back in December, is that she and Gregory were at that point. There was an attempt at that time to transfer ownership and responsibility of the forum to someone new. Or so I understood it. Perhaps I misunderstood.

In any case, it seems Carol and Gregory are still in the driver's seat. Are they happy about that, I am wondering, when previously Carol said that they were ready to move on. What is stopping them from doing so and how can the present membership of this forum help them do so with confidence that their long effort will not be squandered (if that is in fact their worry, concern, obstacle).

I am not interested in the easy and obvious solution, as you state it. I am interested in the future of this ZFI of which we are both, you and I, contributing members.
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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby Dan74 on Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:21 pm

Yes.

It is plain to see that the Forum does not have an active Admin. Neither Gregory nor Carol have commented here. My PM to Gregory four days ago remains unread.

This is not about their long service to ZFI. It is about what is happening now. The captain seems to have abandoned ship, and she is adrift.

I suggest that we need an active Admin. Somebody who has done it in the past would be ideal, like Anders, if he is available. Alternatively it could be an idea for active teachers like Meido, Guo Gu and Judy Roitman to ask their senior students if they are prepared to take on ZFI Administration.


_/|\_
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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby fukasetsu on Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:07 pm

Dan74 wrote:I suggest that we need an active Admin. Somebody who has done it in the past would be ideal, like Anders, if he is available. Alternatively it could be an idea for active teachers like Meido, Guo Gu and Judy Roitman to ask their senior students if they are prepared to take on ZFI Administration.


I thought these things were settled last year already, can't we just ask gregory to assign an admin?

Last time I was an admin or co-owner was on nhl torrents, later named tstn (RIP)
I could do the job with 20.000 active members, and when I had no time I simply assigned another 2 admins and a group of moderators.
It's pretty standard for any site to switch admins and moderators at least once a year, since ppl no longer have time or perhaps don't fill the position as intended.

I really don't see how anyone can just abandon ship without taking care of assigning a team first, it's no rocket science. :PP:
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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby flutemaker on Fri Jul 14, 2017 6:47 pm

Dan74 wrote:I suggest that we need an active Admin. Somebody who has done it in the past would be ideal, like Anders, if he is available. Alternatively it could be an idea for active teachers like Meido, Guo Gu and Judy Roitman to ask their senior students if they are prepared to take on ZFI Administration.

That was my thought exactly to call here their senior students.

Much depends, however, on how you would like to settle things straight: (1) technically, (2) formally, or (3) ethically? Or entirely -- "all inclusive"?

If technically, to M. (who, though verbally resigned, but if the resignation has not yet been accepted back, still holds the 3 powers in his hands, namely, ZFI tech admin permission {see server roles/groups link below on this site web pages under the 'tech admin' color ***}, JumpLine Admin permission, and GoDaddy Admin permission) you send a petition asking to create a secondary JumpLine Admin login, from where ZFI forum roles, including founders, admins, tech admins, and mods, you set up at your will, easily, with the help of the MySQL control panel, instructions to which, in grandmotherly way compiled, are freely available online.

If formally, to G. you send a petition asking to approve or reject the above described way of action.

If ethically, this is beyond my understanding as to how and where you start.

_______________
*** memberlist.php?mode=group&g=10
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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby Spike on Fri Jul 14, 2017 6:56 pm

fukasetsu wrote:I could do the [nhl torrents Administration] job with 20.000 active members, and when I had no time I simply assigned another 2 admins and a group of moderators. It's pretty standard for any site to switch admins and moderators at least once a year, since ppl no longer have time or perhaps don't fill the position as intended.


You must be highly competent. Maybe the time and effort, and care, C & G expended are not a good match for comparison. Maybe it would indeed be "not a big deal", as others have stated:

james wrote:And the decade long effort to create and maintain this forum, or any worthwhile endeavor, is not a big deal ...


...

fukasetsu wrote:I really don't see how anyone can just abandon ship without taking care of assigning a team first, it's no rocket science. :PP:


I can only guess, but C & G may be concerned for the immediate efficacy and quality of this site ongoing, as well as its lasting reputation, to which they are inextricably linked. Plus I am sure they would want staff who are not just knowledgeable, but trustworthy, based on their own criteria. There are months left before expiration.

Another way of looking at it is they're not abandoning ship, they are taking the last vestige with them, rather than turn it over to would-be foster owners who fail the audition.

P.S.

fukasetsu wrote:Last time I was an admin or co-owner was on nhl torrents, later named tstn (RIP)


Of course, that torrent site didn't do anything illegal because it didn't contain copyrighted material like a lot of other torrent sites which use a VPN to avoid detection & bypass anti-piracy/site blocking?
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