a little humility wouldn't hurt

[genkaku]

The story of the elephant has so many wonderful applications, but each of them seems to suggest that humility is a sensible trait to nourish when considering people and events in this life.

Anyway ... here is one version ... what do you think?

One day, a rajah’s son asked, “Father, what is reality?”

“An excellent question, my son. Come, we will go to the marketplace.”

So the rajah and his son went outside and mounted their royal elephant. When they got to the marketplace, the rajah commanded, “Bring me 3 blind men.” When the blind men arrived, the rajah commanded, “Place one blind man at the elephant’s tusk, one at the elephant’s leg and one at the elephant’s tail.” When that was done, the rajah said, “Describe the elephant to me, blind men.”

The man at the tusk said, “It’s like a spear.” The man at the leg said, “It’s like a tree.” The man at the tail said, “It’s like a rope.”

As the men started to argue, the rajah said to his son, “Reality, my son, is the elephant. And we are all blind men.”

[chicka-Dee]

This is a great story, loved it! Do you have any more?

[PeterB]

Its of course easy to overlook an important aspect of this story which occurs in different variations right across Asia, to whit, the mens perceptions are partial, accurate as far as they go but partial. The elephant stays the elephant. I mention this because I have seen the story misinterpreted as either there is no elephant. Or than each mans perception is right for him. In reality there is an elephant, and each mans perception might be correct according to his limited perception, but that perception is not right. The story in other words is not an invitation to linguistic meltdown.

[genkaku]

Its of course easy to overlook an important aspect of this story which occurs in different variations right across Asia, to whit, the mens perceptions are partial, accurate as far as they go but partial. The elephant stays the elephant. I mention this because I have seen the story misinterpreted as either there is no elephant. Or than each mans perception is right for him. In reality there is an elephant, and each mans perception might be correct according to his limited perception, but that perception is not right. The story in other words is not an invitation to linguistic meltdown.

Nice footnote, Peter. And, if I am not reiterating what you meant to imply, the story is also not an invitation to a lazy moral relativism. If anyone believes things are OK according to their fragile but compelling perspectives ... well, tell me about it when the elephant steps on your foot.

[Luzdelaluna]

I like the story from the blind elephant's perspective. When asked what he thought humans were like, he replied, "Flat, very flat."

[genkaku]

I like the story from the blind elephant's perspective. When asked what he thought humans were like, he replied, "Flat, very flat."

Love it!

[PeterB]

I like the story from the blind elephant's perspective. When asked what he thought humans were like, he replied, "Flat, very flat."

[Shonin]

Yes - great ending - literally.

Its of course easy to overlook an important aspect of this story which occurs in different variations right across Asia, to whit, the mens perceptions are partial, accurate as far as they go but partial. The elephant stays the elephant. I mention this because I have seen the story misinterpreted as either there is no elephant. Or than each mans perception is right for him. In reality there is an elephant, and each mans perception might be correct according to his limited perception, but that perception is not right. The story in other words is not an invitation to linguistic meltdown.

Yes, I don't think Buddhism should be equated with subjectivism or a post-modernist relativism. I wonder though whether it is right to take this story as an argument for the existence of an 'objective reality' either ie. the metaphysical belief in an unreachable reality that exists independently of our experiences of it. The idea of an independently existent reality (even a 'blank' one) is just another idea in our minds, conditional on our minds. Buddhism is pragmatic and empirical rather than speculative about such matters.

There is a passage in Dogen's Genjokoan which parallels this closely:

when we are riding in a boat out of sight of land and we look around, we see only a circle [of ocean], and no other characteristics are visible. However, the great ocean is neither circular nor square, and its other characteristics are inexhaustible. It looks like a palace [to fish] or a jewel ornament [to beings in the sky]. It just looks round to our eyes when we briefly encounter it. The myriad things are the same. Although things in this world or beyond this world contain many aspects, we are capable of grasping only what we can through the power of vision, which comes from practice. In order to perceive these may aspects, you must understand that besides being round or square, oceans and rivers have many other characteristics and that there are many worlds in other directions. It is not like this just nearby; it is like this right beneath your feet and even in a drop of water.

[TTT]

I like the story from the blind elephant's perspective. When asked what he thought humans were like, he replied, "Flat, very flat."

hehe!

[TTT]

The story of the elephant has so many wonderful applications, but each of them seems to suggest that humility is a sensible trait to nourish when considering people and events in this life.

Anyway ... here is one version ... what do you think?

One day, a rajah’s son asked, “Father, what is reality?”

“An excellent question, my son. Come, we will go to the marketplace.”

So the rajah and his son went outside and mounted their royal elephant. When they got to the marketplace, the rajah commanded, “Bring me 3 blind men.” When the blind men arrived, the rajah commanded, “Place one blind man at the elephant’s tusk, one at the elephant’s leg and one at the elephant’s tail.” When that was done, the rajah said, “Describe the elephant to me, blind men.”

The man at the tusk said, “It’s like a spear.” The man at the leg said, “It’s like a tree.” The man at the tail said, “It’s like a rope.”

As the men started to argue, the rajah said to his son, “Reality, my son, is the elephant. And we are all blind men.”

Its a good story. Thanks!

[PeterB]

Yes - great ending - literally.

Its of course easy to overlook an important aspect of this story which occurs in different variations right across Asia, to whit, the mens perceptions are partial, accurate as far as they go but partial. The elephant stays the elephant. I mention this because I have seen the story misinterpreted as either there is no elephant. Or than each mans perception is right for him. In reality there is an elephant, and each mans perception might be correct according to his limited perception, but that perception is not right. The story in other words is not an invitation to linguistic meltdown.

Yes, I don't think Buddhism should be equated with subjectivism or a post-modernist relativism. I wonder though whether it is right to take this story as an argument for the existence of an 'objective reality' either ie. the metaphysical belief in an unreachable reality that exists independently of our experiences of it. The idea of an independently existent reality (even a 'blank' one) is just another idea in our minds, conditional on our minds. Buddhism is pragmatic and empirical rather than speculative about such matters.

There is a passage in Dogen's Genjokoan which parallels this closely:

when we are riding in a boat out of sight of land and we look around, we see only a circle [of ocean], and no other characteristics are visible. However, the great ocean is neither circular nor square, and its other characteristics are inexhaustible. It looks like a palace [to fish] or a jewel ornament [to beings in the sky]. It just looks round to our eyes when we briefly encounter it. The myriad things are the same. Although things in this world or beyond this world contain many aspects, we are capable of grasping only what we can through the power of vision, which comes from practice. In order to perceive these may aspects, you must understand that besides being round or square, oceans and rivers have many other characteristics and that there are many worlds in other directions. It is not like this just nearby; it is like this right beneath your feet and even in a drop of water.

In which case the elephant is in part the absence of that seperate reality.

[island]

There are two forms of relativism. Strong and weak. The weak kind is the kind we are most used to. "You got your opinion and I got mine." It says there is no truth value to whatever we think is there. But strong relativism which is also called perspectivalism is closer to the blind man story in only this sense. If the blind men admitted that their senses of the thing were biased and they collaborated together they might eventually come closer to what the elephant is like. So the truth isn't absent in some air pocket of unknowability completely; it just takes work to get there.

[chicka-Dee]

There are two forms of relativism. Strong and weak. The weak kind is the kind we are most used to. "You got your opinion and I got mine." It says there is no truth value to whatever we think is there. But strong relativism which is also called perspectivalism is closer to the blind man story in only this sense. If the blind men admitted that their senses of the thing were biased and they collaborated together they might eventually come closer to what the elephant is like. So the truth isn't absent in some air pocket of unknowability completely; it just takes work to get there.

Yes, I see it as: if the blind men were to stop arguing and become open enough to take in other perspectives, a clearer picture would start to emerge. This is where our practice of mindfulness and meditation takes us, I think.

[shoey]

There are two forms of relativism. Strong and weak. The weak kind is the kind we are most used to. "You got your opinion and I got mine." It says there is no truth value to whatever we think is there. But strong relativism which is also called perspectivalism is closer to the blind man story in only this sense. If the blind men admitted that their senses of the thing were biased and they collaborated together they might eventually come closer to what the elephant is like. So the truth isn't absent in some air pocket of unknowability completely; it just takes work to get there.

Yes, I see it as: if the blind men were to stop arguing and become open enough to take in other perspectives, a clearer picture would start to emerge. This is where our practice of mindfulness and meditation takes us, I think.

fair point,however, what if i give you my perspective .....and its mistaken ?
how would you validate my view ?

elephants are a different matter (sic)
the blind men are not describing an elephant - they are saying what its like,to them.

[island]

Trial and error and lots more blind men to double check.

[PeterB]

Lots of trunk calls.

[shoey]

Trial and error and lots more blind men to double check.

my perspective to anyone would still be deluded view.why take it on board ? why waste time checking it out ?

reality cannot be described with words because, this is reality too -what we are doing now is no more or less real than anything else.
theres nothing missing

thats just my view tho

[Kojip]

Yeh ... the notion that there is this objectively existing thing called reality that we can only partially see is...... off. This is it.. Total, Complete. Metaphysics are projected from here.

[chicka-Dee]

fair point,however, what if i give you my perspective .....and its mistaken ?
how would you validate my view ?

elephants are a different matter (sic)
the blind men are not describing an elephant - they are saying what its like,to them.

Good point, shoey, but if I may:

Yes, I see it as: if the blind men were to stop arguing and become open enough to take in other perspectives, a clearer picture would start to emerge. This is where our practice of mindfulness and meditation takes us, I think.

What I'm trying to convey is that openness allows us to see a bigger picture (even though it may not yet be totally 'accurate'), and opens the mind to possibilities and receiving our experience in a more non-judgemental, accepting way. It seems to me that this is a good 'preparation' for seeing and bringing in authentic ways of experiencing reality. Maybe?

[shoey]

Hi chick
"It seems to me that this is a good 'preparation' for seeing and bringing in authentic ways of experiencing reality. Maybe?"

ive no idea what an authentic way of experiencing reality is.

whats "wrong" with the one you got ?


preparation for what ? this is it - live !

just a view tho

well wishes