Chan / Zen Masters on Rebirth

[OmegA]

What with that great big blazing "Buddhism and Reincarnation" thread going down, some people rightly mentioned that it appeared to have been hijacked :tongue: by the Theravadins. Perhaps I was partly responsible, though I'm not a Theravadin.

We want Zen! They shouted, what are the Zen masters saying about all this?

So, I fished around some old stuff, and managed to dredge up a few things to share with everyone, though the original theme may have been a different from what we have here. In rough chronological order:

From the Platform sutra:

Dharma Jewel Altar Sūtra of the Venerable Master, the Sixth Patriarch《六祖大師法寶壇經》

Dharma Nature (Dharmatā) is the essence of arising and ceasing; the five aggregates (skandhas) are the function of arising and ceasing, one essence with five functions. Arising and ceasing is continuous. Arising – is the arising of the function from the essence. Ceasing – is the subsuming of the function back to the essence.
[View of eternalism:] If it were accepted that [the same aggregates] arose again, then sentient beings would be neither annihilated or ceased.
[View of nihilism:] If it were accepted that nothing arose again, then [sentient beings] would eternally return to a state of annihilation, and would be identical with inanimate objects. In this way, all dharmas would be excluded from nirvāṇa, [those dharmas] could not even arise, let alone experience happiness [of nirvāṇa].
The Master said: ‘You are a son of the Śākyas (Buddhist), why do you habituate yourself in the wrong view of eternalism and nihilism of the heretics, and debate about the Dharma of the supreme vehicle?’”

From Linji, short and sweet, a phrase which is now very common,

Records of the Words of Ch’an Master Linji Huizhao of Zhenzhou: 《鎮州臨濟慧照禪師語錄》

“… one will enter into the six realms and four [forms of] rebirth, wearing fur and bearing horns.”

and

Records of the Words of Ch’an Master Linji Huizhao of Zhenzhou: 《鎮州臨濟慧照禪師語錄》

Thereupon, the Master said: “Those who train in the Buddha Dharma in the present time, should seek for true and correct vision and understanding. If [one] attains true and correct vision and understanding, one will not be tainted by [the round of] birth and death (samsara), one is free to stay or leave. Without seeking for the highest and most excellent, the highest and most excellent shall arrive of itself. Followers of the Path! Just as those previous virtuous [masters] from ancient times, who have set out upon the profound path. If a Sanghin from the mountain [monastery] were to point and indicate the ways of people, they would not be deluded by the [ways of] people. What they need to apply, they directly apply, and have no further doubts. But present students cannot get it, where is the fault (disease)? The fault is in having no self confidence. If one’s self confidence is insufficient, one will instead rush and busy [back and forth], turned over by all the objects [they encounter]. Pushed back and forth by these myriad objective [states], they will not find freedom. If, rather, one is able to seek the mind in thought [moment] after thought [moment], one will become no different from the patriarches and Buddhas. Then, if one wishes to know of the patriarches and Buddhas, they will be before them, and hear the Dharma to their content. [If however,] these students’ confidence is insufficient, they will turn and seek externally. That which they obtain by seeking, is all just of the superior nature of words and letters, but they will never obtain the living intention of the patriarchs. Do not mistake the virtues of Ch’an! If one does not encounter it now [in this life], one will revolve for 10 000 aeons and thousands of lives throughout the Triple Realm, chasing pleasant objects back and forth, reborn in the bellies of donkeys and cows. Followers of the Path! If one connects with what this Sanghin of the mountain [monastery] has seen, one is no different to Śakya[muni]. Today, you have all the requisites you require, what are you lacking? The spiritual light of the Six Realms has never been interrupted, if one is able to thus gain a vision of it, in this life, one is a man of no-deeds.”

A bit later, with the Huayan Chan thing going on:

Records of the Mirror of the [Chan] Lineage:《宗鏡錄》

“... in every moment, the nature of the Tathagata's Dharmadhatu is creating the cause of living beings karma and result. Evil karma is made afresh daily, the conditions of suffering are inexhaustible. In places of calm and stability, one arises a mind of sorrow and afflictions. One heads towards liberation, amassing bonds and ties, experiencing a body with flaming mouth and a needle-throat (hungry ghost), after aeons of starvation and burning fires, one has a body wearing fur and bearing horns, ... to be caught in nets, etc.; or falls into the uninterrupted hells, grasping at suffering, always [afflicted by] the wheel of fire; or rebirth into the palaces of the Asuras, arising fighting and disputation, raining constant knives and swords; or sometimes born into the human realm, where in an instant, one experiences the eight sufferings; or even the heavenly palaces, where one suddenly will fall in agony; .... “

and also

Records of the [Ch’an] Sect Mirror:《宗鏡錄》

Ānanda! What do I mean by ‘concentrating the mind is precept’? If living beings in the six realms of the world, have no sexual desire in their minds, they will not continue within the continuum of birth and death. When one cultivates the basics of samādhi, one first removes the ‘dust’ – if sexual desire is not removed, the ‘dust’ cannot be removed, and this will obstruct the direct manifestation of prajñā and samādhi. If one does not cease sexual desire, one will certainly fall into the paths of Māra – the superior being the Māra king himself, the middling being the minions of Māra, and the inferior being Māra’s daughters. If one seeks the sublime fruits of Buddhahood while personally engaging in sexual activity, this will obstruct sublime realization. With sexual desire as the foundation, resulting in sexual activity, one will revolve in the three lower realms, and be unable to escape. In order to cultivate and realize nirvāṇa, one must definitely control sexual desire. Even if one ends both body and mind, sexual desire is still not ceased, and this is useless as far as the enlightenment of a buddha is concerned. … The habit of sexual intercourse, is considered as the fire of desire. Bodhisattvas consider desire, and avoid it like a burning pit.

A slightly later classic,

Ch’an School Exhortation:《緇門警訓》

… However, in the latter days there will be those who speak of Ch’an, they will only learn vain words, and will have no real understanding. Wherever they go, they will speak vain and empty words, such as “one cannot be led by karma”, and they will spread it amongst the people that “there is no cause and effect”, and will also say “drinking alcohol and eating meat will not obstruct bodhi”, that “engaging in theft, and engaging in sexual activity does not prevent prajñā”. In this life, they will encounter the law, and on death will fall into the avici hells. After experiencing the end of their karma in the hells, they will become hungry ghosts and animals, and will not escape this for millions of kalpas. … If one can cut out one’s own heart and liver, as if it were a piece of wood – then one can eat meat. If one can consume alcohol as if it were urine and feces – then can drink alcohol. If one can see an attractive man or woman as if they were a corpse – then one can engage in sex. … Countless sūtras and śāstras state, if one does not remove sexual desire, one destroys the seeds of purity; if one does not stop drinking alcohol, one destroys the seeds of wisdom; if one does not cease theft, one destroys the seeds of virtue; if one does not end meat eating, one destroys the seeds of compassion. All the Buddhas of the past, present and future have so proclaimed it! All those of the Ch’an school state this unanimously! If later practitioners ignore, and do not follow this, they will ruin the true cause, and rather engage in the teachings of Māra. Through this perfuming of their minds, they will encounter deviant teachers. The roots of goodness are easily lost, the roots of evil are hard to remove. Ancient holy practitioners viewed the deeds of Māra as ten thousand arrows piercing their hearts, the sound of Māra as a thousand spears stabbing their ears. One should swiftly abandon this. Do not take this advice lightly!

Heavy stuff.

[Christopher]

Heavy stuff.

This reminds of a thread way back on a now-evidently-defunct other board, which quoted some of the same things. I had always refused to look into it, but one day I decided that, well, maybe there were in fact some obscure texts somewhere that might convince me of something new, e.g. rebirth. So I took the plunge and finally read the thread. Talk about a letdown - THAT was what all the fuss was about?

I've had a similar experience reading Dogen's Shobogenzo, too. All these Soto people going on and on about how uniquely great Dogen is, etc., I figured that maybe he had something really new to say, that perhaps hadn't already been covered a thousand times in the Linchi-Lu or whatever. Anyways, so I've recently started reading it in the evenings and - granted I'm only at Chapter 12 or so - I can say that so far it's just par for the course. Wonderful? Sure. Groundbreaking? No way.

So trust me on this one, people: there really is nothing new under the sun. Just do zazen and forget about the rest!

[Anders Honore]

Heavy stuff.

This reminds of a thread way back on a now-evidently-defunct other board, which quoted some of the same things. I had always refused to look into it, but one day I decided that, well, maybe there were in fact some obscure texts somewhere that might convince me of something new, e.g. rebirth. So I took the plunge and finally read the thread. Talk about a letdown - THAT was what all the fuss was about?

What kind of fuzz would you be looking for to make that happen?

[Christopher]

Hi Anders,

That's a good question. Maybe all I can say is, like that famous legal definition of pornography, I'll "know it when I see it."

Seriously though, without wanting to reopen this perennial can of worms: given that the entire Zen canon seems (for me) to point in one direction, they'll have to be some pretty darn clear words - from someone whom I otherwise respect - to convince me of the diametrical opposite. Linchi threatening his monks with fur and horns, for example, just doesn't cut it.

But I accept that this may just be my own predilection.

[OmegA]

From Lingyou, with some explanation:

Notes in Explanation of [Chan Master] Gui Shan’s “Exhortation” 《溈山警策句釋記》

[Exhortation:] “In the time of a single kṣāna, the turn of a breath, thereupon is the next life.”

[Explanation:] The Sanskrit word “kṣāna” means “one thought moment”, a period of time which is extremely fast. The Mahāsāṃghika Vinaya states: “Twenty thought-moments are one ‘blink’; twenty ‘blinks’ are one ‘finger snap’.” The Abhidharmakośa states: “Within the time of the finger snap of a strong man, there are sixty kṣānas.” However, a thought moment has both large and small. A large thought moment has ninety kṣānas, and within each kṣāna there are nine hundred arisings and ceasings. This is said to be a kṣāna, which is a small thought moment. The word “breath” is just the exhaled and inhaled breath. This breath is said to be the “life principle”, and a single life principle period is one life span, it’s continuation being called a “life”. Within a span, the breath of air continues uninterrupted, therefore the exhalation and inhalation is named the “life span”. The “turn” is from the exhalation, without any subsequent inhalation. This is said to be the “end of life”. This occurs within the time of single kṣāna. Thereupon, the eighth [ālāya] consciousness abandons the previous set of aggregates, and takes up the subsequent set of aggregates. For now, we will not discuss the “intermediate state”, but mention “previous” and “subsequent”, to which it is in between. Moreover, the speed of the intermediate state is not fixed. At the slowest, it is seven time seven days, at the fastest, it is as swift as a single thought moment. Thereupon it abandons the intermediate state and takes up the subsequent [aggregates]. By “next life”, it refers to the six realms of existence. In accordance with wholesome and / or unwholesome karma, one is retributively reborn in the appropriate location.

[Notes:] There are two statements in the original text. That is, explanation of the first sentence on “kṣāna” and “other life”, which explains the speed of a kṣāna. Superior wholesome karma leads to heavenly rebirth, medium wholesome karma leads to human rebirth, lesser wholesome karma leads to asura rebirth; strong unwholesome karma leads to rebirth in hell, medium unwholesome karma leads to rebirth as a spirit, and lesser unwholesome karma leads to rebirth as an animal. The word “blink” is the movement of the eye. The word “intermediate state” refer to how at the end of a person’s life, when the exhalation and inhalation ceases, the eight (ālāya) consciousness abandons and leaves the previous aggregated existence and thereupon has an intermediate existence. This is within space, subtle and not visible to the eye, and it consumes vapors. In a location to which it has karmic conditions, it thereupon sees its [new] father and mother united together. With the light of the fire of desire, it arrives there according to its thought. With confused perceptions, in the time of a kṣāna the drops of red [blood] and white [semen] combine together, and these form the subsequent set of aggregates. Thereupon, the intermediate state ends. If the location of rebirth is not fixed for them, or the father and mother are not united together, this intermediate state existence with continue for up to seven days, and then die; and then again for seven rounds of seven days each. Within this time it will certainly reach rebirth in a time no more than forty nine days. It their karmic retribution is already fixed, whether it be rebirth as a human or heavenly god, or as a spirit or animal, within the space of a single kṣāna [consciousness] will abandon the previous state aggregates and take up the intermediate state, then abandon the intermediate state and take up the subsequent aggregates. The speed is as fast as a flash of lightning, it cannot be fathomed by unenlightened beings, but only the Buddha can comprehend it.

[Carol]

From Lingyou, with some explanation:

Thanks. Do you have a link to the text somewhere on the web?

[OmegA]

From Lingyou, with some explanation:

Thanks. Do you have a link to the text somewhere on the web?

Please try here.
From X63n1240_p0236b07(00)-c05(02)

[lungshan]

And then there's always the old Fox Koan!!

[TomMac]

Huang-po Hsi-yun (?-849) was a Chinese Zen Master, and the teacher of Lin-chi (Rinzai).

There is not much information about the life of Huang Po. However he taught in the tradition of Zen Buddhism. Huang Po taught that enlightenment could be achieved by a silent mind and putting an end to conceptual thinking. This is a similar teaching to other Zen Masters such as Bodidharma and Dogen.

" This is a short extract by Huang Po on the nature of the mind and Buddha nature: All Buddhas and all ordinary beings are nothing but the one mind. This mind is beginningless and endless, unborn and indestructible. It has no color or shape, neither exists nor doesn't exist, isn't old or new, long or short, large or small, since it transcends all measures, limits, names, and comparisons. It is what you see in front of you.

Start to think about it and immediately you are mistaken. It is like the boundless void, which can't be fathomed or measured. The one mind is the Buddha, and there is no distinction between Buddha and ordinary beings, except that ordinary beings are attached to forms and thus seek for Buddhahood outside themselves. By this very seeking they lose it, since they are using Buddha to seek for Buddha, using mind to seek for mind. Even if they continue for a million eons, they will never be able to find it. They don't know that all they have to do is put a stop to conceptual thinking, and the Buddha will appear before them, because this mind is the Buddha and the Buddha is all living beings. It is not any less for being manifested in ordinary things, nor any greater for being manifested in Buddhas."

From: Stephen Mitchell's The Enlightened Mind - An Anthology of Sacred Prose.

Tom.

[OmegA]

Huang-po Hsi-yun (?-849) was a Chinese Zen Master, and the teacher of Lin-chi (Rinzai).

There is not much information about the life of Huang Po. However he taught in the tradition of Zen Buddhism. Huang Po taught that enlightenment could be achieved by a silent mind and putting an end to conceptual thinking. This is a similar teaching to other Zen Masters such as Bodidharma and Dogen.

" This is a short extract by Huang Po on the nature of the mind and Buddha nature: All Buddhas and all ordinary beings are nothing but the one mind. This mind is beginningless and endless, unborn and indestructible. It has no color or shape, neither exists nor doesn't exist, isn't old or new, long or short, large or small, since it transcends all measures, limits, names, and comparisons. It is what you see in front of you.

Start to think about it and immediately you are mistaken. It is like the boundless void, which can't be fathomed or measured. The one mind is the Buddha, and there is no distinction between Buddha and ordinary beings, except that ordinary beings are attached to forms and thus seek for Buddhahood outside themselves. By this very seeking they lose it, since they are using Buddha to seek for Buddha, using mind to seek for mind. Even if they continue for a million eons, they will never be able to find it. They don't know that all they have to do is put a stop to conceptual thinking, and the Buddha will appear before them, because this mind is the Buddha and the Buddha is all living beings. It is not any less for being manifested in ordinary things, nor any greater for being manifested in Buddhas."

From: Stephen Mitchell's The Enlightened Mind - An Anthology of Sacred Prose.

Tom.

Hi Tom, thanks for sharing these words about Master Huang Po.

I am having some difficulty working out the relation to "Chan / Zen Masters on Rebirth", though. Is it the line "Even if they continue for a million eons, they will never be able to find it"? Or the essential mind as the continuity from life to life?

[TomMac]

Hi there, Omega.

SELF

Did you as I
feel that yearning longing pain,
that pain of separation?
did you as I yearn and long, for
that One
I thought to be, somewhere out there unattainable,
did you come to know
the knowing
where It is,
It who fills the cavern of my heart
brimful and running over,
It is The Self,
so who am I, neither this nor that,
none but The Self alone can Know The Self.

Alpha.
Tom.

[Jundo Cohen]

I've had a similar experience reading Dogen's Shobogenzo, too. All these Soto people going on and on about how uniquely great Dogen is, etc., I figured that maybe he had something really new to say, that perhaps hadn't already been covered a thousand times in the Linchi-Lu or whatever. Anyways, so I've recently started reading it in the evenings and - granted I'm only at Chapter 12 or so - I can say that so far it's just par for the course. Wonderful? Sure. Groundbreaking? No way.

I agree, though it is how you look at it (with your ears). I often compare Dogen to a Jazz musician, like Miles or Coltrane, bending/syncopating/recombining the notes of the standard tunes. Please look here if you have never heard me go on about that ...

viewtopic.php?p=27147#p27147

The result is the same, but often something really new and energetic and whatever ... just like Coltrane could twist the standard "Over the Rainbow" into a trip over the rainbow, man. You have to have an ear to hear what both men were doing.

Dogen did have some special things that came out of his style, I think, like his expression of each Dharma fully exerting, fully expressing emptiness/Buddha/whatever. It is the sound more than the idea, the power of expression he brought into that.

Before reading and really digging Dogen, the best intro is to read the two Dr. Kim books (He wrote them a few years apart, and changed interpretation slightly over the years just a drop ) ...

http://www.amazon.com/Eihei-Dogen-Mysti ... 011&sr=8-3

http://www.amazon.com/Dogen-Meditation- ... gy_b_img_b

Also, after reading those ... if ya still looking for more (cause the above should be taken slowly) ... Visions of Awakening Space and Time: Dogen and the Lotus Sutra (Paperback) by Taigen Dan Leighton (Author) ... about how Dogen wild-ed and bent the already wild and bent Lotus Sutra into something even more bent and wild ...

http://www.amazon.com/Lotus-Sutra-Conte ... gy_b_img_b

Harry also does some real good writing on Dogen.

http://bodhiarmour.blogspot.com/

Gassho, Jundo

[Jundo Cohen]

What with that great big blazing "Buddhism and Reincarnation" thread going down, some people rightly mentioned that it appeared to have been hijacked :tongue: by the Theravadins. Perhaps I was partly responsible, though I'm not a Theravadin.

We want Zen! They shouted, what are the Zen masters saying about all this?

So, I fished around some old stuff, and managed to dredge up a few things to share with everyone, though the original theme may have been a different from what we have here. In rough chronological order:

On the other thread, I made a little comment on the various quotes OmegaA has posted.

If it matters, I have no problem with any of those.

In each, the focus is on practice in this life, here and now. The mention of future lives seems secondary, mentioned in passing (therefor a sentence or two was boldfaced in a longer discourse). The point is that, whatever comes (or will not) we can be free of it here and now. Thus, it is a moot point when "Mu" is realized.

I have no doubt that many (most) of the Chan/Zen masters of centuries past believed in these things literally, because that was the world view. Some may have taken it symbolically. All seemed to think of it as ultimately a "non-issue" with proper practice and realization here.

I have no doubt that many (most) of these folks believed in these things, just as they believed what people believed 500 or 1000 years ago (that the earth was flat, that it rested upon a giant catfish in space). But, it was not a central issue, not a worry, with proper practice here and now.

I want to add to that with other examples from Bassui and Huang-po ... Rebirth is but a secondary issue, mentioned in passing in long talks on a million subjects and one (all of which, for Bassui and Huang-po, come down to One Mind) ... Transmigration through the Six Realms (and all the Buddha's words in the Sutras too) are moot once the Moon is seen ...

Bassui: "You are unable to dismiss lingering habits simply because you are not looking into your own nature. If you clearly penetrate this truth of seeing into your own nature, arousing the great prajna wisdom and realizing that all names and forms are illusion, you will never again have feelings of attachment to either existence or emptiness. Hence it is said in a sutra: 'When you know it as illusion, you are at that moment separated from it and have no need for any expedient means.'

"If you try to remove lingering habits that come from attachment to form, not yet having seen into your own nature, you are like one in deep sleep trying to rid oneself of a dream. The desire to rid oneself of it is itself a dream. The knowledge that it is a dream is also nothing but a dream. As for completely waking up from this sleep, no matter how much you seek something within a dream you will never attain it.

"The Buddha said [in the Diamond Sutra]: 'All karmic paths are like dreams, illusions, bubbles, and shadows; they are like a dewdrop or a flash of lightning - thus shall you think of it.'
...

Though the mind of ordinary people is clear and one with the Buddhas and patriarchs, unable to believe it you fail to rid yourself of the spirit that attaches to form; therefore you transmigrate through the six realms, binding yourself and enduring suffering.

"If you want to remove all feelings of attachment and attain the way of liberation, you should neither turn to things external, grasping them as 'ordinary' or 'sacred,' nor turn inward and cultivate a sense of the me. You should, rather, look carefully into your inherent nature directly; then, for the first time, you will attain it."

"All of you! If you want to return to your homes, simply wake up to your true nature. This mind nature is the original source of all Buddhas. It is the names of all the sutras. Sometimes it is referred to as the Unique and Wonderful Dharma, sometimes as Perfect Awakening, sometimes as the Void, sometimes as the World, sometimes as the Pure Land. All of these names simply point to the One Mind. Though there are ten thousand different names, there are not even two dharma realities.

"For that reason it is written in a sutra: 'The teachings in the sutras are fingers pointing to the moon. When you see the moon yourself, you realize there is no moon to point to after all.' The enlightenment in which you see your true mind and realize your true nature is transmitted outside of the scriptures; it is not based on names and words. That is why it is said: 'When you see the moon, you know there is no moon to point at.'"

- Zen Master Bassui (1327-1387)
From Mud and Water - A Collection of Talks by Zen Master Bassui; Translated by Arthur Braverman (1989)
Pages 95-96 here
http://books.google.com/books?id=JvtgH1 ... es&f=false

Also, Huang-po in similar style

Q: What is the Buddha?

A: Mind is the Buddha, while cessation of conceptual thought is the Way. Once you stop arousing concepts and thinking in terms of existence and non-existence, long and short, other and self, active and passive, and suchlike, you will find that your Mind is intrinsically the Buddha, that the Buddha is intrinsically Mind, and that Mind resembles a void. Therefore it is written that "the true Dharmakaya resembles a void." Seek for nothing but this, else your search must end in sorrow.

Though you perform the six paramitas for as many eons as there are grains of sand in the Ganges, adding also all the other sorts of activities for gaining Enlightenment, you will still fall short of the goal. Why? Because these are karma-forming activities and, when the good karma they produce has been exhausted, you will be born again in the ephemeral world.

Therefore is it also written: "The Sambhogakaya is not a real Buddha, nor a real teacher of the Dharma. Only come to know the nature of your own Mind, in which there is no self and no other, and you will in fact be a Buddha!

(page 67 here),
http://books.google.com/books?id=v5BxwN ... 22&f=false\

In other words, rebirth ... barely a mention, and a non-starter as a subject for serious discussion (a non-ender too).

Gassho, Jundo

[Jundo Cohen]

As I mentioned Bassui, I should mention one talk by him in which he appears to take a very literal view of rebirths in hell. In fact, you can't be more "Fire and Brimstone" than Bassui in this talk. He is discussing discipline among monks in a monastery, and how even small infractions (like taking an extra portion of food while nobody is looking) can have grave consequences ... Pages 119 to 125 here (look at 123 for a good example)

[A monk intentionally did not offer a serving of milk to a guest monk visiting the temple] ... As a result of this act, he was made to suffer in hell in the form of a great flaming vat made of flesh.

http://books.google.com/books?id=JvtgH1 ... q=&f=false

It is not surprising that folks looked at the world in such terms back in the 14th century. (Hell, some folks look at the world and Hell that way in 21st century Alabama). The talk seems very much unlike the rest of Bassui's Dharma discourses, and it seems worth supposing that the purpose was to 'scare the bejesus' (scare the bebuddha?) out of monks in his charge late in life, when he was managing a large monastery (perhaps there was some trouble with monks acting a bit selfishly ... hoarding the milk). Thus the theme, how even misusing communal temple utensils or other shenanigans might lead to big trouble ...


[There were two novice monks who] went to sleep embracing each other on a single sleeping mat. As a result of this act, they were made to embrace each other on a sleeping mat while burning in hell, with no relief from this pain up to the present

That will get some crew discipline on board the ship, Captain Bligh!

A couple of things to notice here too: All Bassui's stories in this section are said by him to come from two sources, namely, the "Sogo Sutra" and the "Record of My Reflections" (Shakumon Jikyo no Roku). As far as I can tell, the "Sogo Sutra" was not included in the Daizo-kyo and is likely apocryphal, as are the stories in the "Record of My Reflections". There is not evidence that Bassui was talking from insights beyond what he had read in those story books.

And in any event, when asked how one can avoid the karma of being born in hell, Bassui returned to this simple, present solution ...

Bassui said: "There are no expedient means other than simply looking directly into your inherent nature and stopping the flow of birth and death. One phrase of this sutra says: 'If you perform evil, you will experience hell; if you do good, you will receive the pleasures of heaven; if you meditate on emptiness, you will exhaust delusion and see proof of nirvana.'"

Mind your P's and Q's here and now, and the rest will take care of itself.

Gassho, Jundo

[Jok_Hae]

Jundo Cohen wrote:

In other words, rebirth ... barely a mention, and a non-starter as a subject for serious discussion (a non-ender too).

Or, just possibly it is just something so obvious and taken for granted, that it doesn't take a lot of discussion. I guess we hear what we want to. Myself included.

Keith

[booker]

(...) there is a lot here about birth and death, and about life after life after life that goes along with this. Even the earliest Buddhist teachings offer images of birth and death having to do with momentariness. From the most basic point of view, in Buddhist teaching, birth and death means the appearance and disappearance, momentarily, of all phenomena. Simultaneous with the appearance of all phenomena
is the appearance of the consciousness that recognizes these appearances. All these things are momentary; they last only a moment.

According to the Buddhist philosophical view, consciousness is no more permanent than anything else; it arises and passes away. The only constant thing is momen-tariness, the flashing into existence of one thing after another. From that standpoint, birth and death are occurring nonstop: life after life after life are occurring nonstop.

The past life is past moment. Present life is this moment. Future life is the next moment. That was the teaching of the Sixth Patriarch about reincarnation: past moment is past life; this moment is this life; next moment is future life. And if you perceive that clearly, then you perceive what birth and death are really about

Primary Point, Volume 24 • Number 1 • Spring/Summer 2006. Page 13

[Jundo Cohen]

(...) there is a lot here about birth and death, and about life after life after life that goes along with this. Even the earliest Buddhist teachings offer images of birth and death having to do with momentariness. From the most basic point of view, in Buddhist teaching, birth and death means the appearance and disappearance, momentarily, of all phenomena. Simultaneous with the appearance of all phenomena
is the appearance of the consciousness that recognizes these appearances. All these things are momentary; they last only a moment.

According to the Buddhist philosophical view, consciousness is no more permanent than anything else; it arises and passes away. The only constant thing is momen-tariness, the flashing into existence of one thing after another. From that standpoint, birth and death are occurring nonstop: life after life after life are occurring nonstop.

The past life is past moment. Present life is this moment. Future life is the next moment. That was the teaching of the Sixth Patriarch about reincarnation: past moment is past life; this moment is this life; next moment is future life. And if you perceive that clearly, then you perceive what birth and death are really about

Primary Point, Volume 24 • Number 1 • Spring/Summer 2006. Page 13

That is a very beautiful expression of Rebirth, and is my feeling of it too, and the way a lot of people express it these days.

And for doing so, maybe there are big, firey vats of boiling oil awaiting us in a Buddhist Hell which we can share.

(I will take my chances)

Gassho, Jundo

[booker]

Tricycle: There’s a debate that’s going on among many Western Buddhists about reincarnation—about whether it’s essential to believe in it or not.

If you do good action, then you get happiness. If you do bad action, you get suffering. Very simple. But what if you ask, “What is your original face? Who are you?” That is Zen.

So then what?

Attain your true self. That’s it.

Then what happens to the idea of reincarnation?

Reincarnation? Doesn’t matter. Sometimes go to Heaven, sometimes go to Hell – no problem. You just follow situation – then any place, any kind of body you get, no problem. Only follow situation and help other people. That is the great Bodhisattva way.

So don’t attach to ideas—even reincarnation?

Yeah, any idea—throw it away! This moment important. Next life not so important. This moment is yours. Next life not yours. Past life, present life, future life are not yours. Because past, present, and future are made by thinking. Original face has no past, no present, no future. We only have moment. Moment is yours – infinite time, infinite space. If you make this moment clear, then your whole life is clear, also next life clear. If this moment is not clear, then everything not clear. So Zen practice is just moment to moment – become clear. That’s all.

http://www.buddhimudra.com/wisdom/zen/1 ... seung-sahn

[So-on Mann]

Jundo Cohen wrote:

In other words, rebirth ... barely a mention, and a non-starter as a subject for serious discussion (a non-ender too).

Or, just possibly it is just something so obvious and taken for granted, that it doesn't take a lot of discussion. I guess we hear what we want to. Myself included.

Keith

They hardly talked about zazen!

[Jiun]

(...) there is a lot here about birth and death, and about life after life after life that goes along with this. Even the earliest Buddhist teachings offer images of birth and death having to do with momentariness. From the most basic point of view, in Buddhist teaching, birth and death means the appearance and disappearance, momentarily, of all phenomena. Simultaneous with the appearance of all phenomena
is the appearance of the consciousness that recognizes these appearances. All these things are momentary; they last only a moment.

According to the Buddhist philosophical view, consciousness is no more permanent than anything else; it arises and passes away. The only constant thing is momen-tariness, the flashing into existence of one thing after another. From that standpoint, birth and death are occurring nonstop: life after life after life are occurring nonstop.

The past life is past moment. Present life is this moment. Future life is the next moment. That was the teaching of the Sixth Patriarch about reincarnation: past moment is past life; this moment is this life; next moment is future life. And if you perceive that clearly, then you perceive what birth and death are really about

Primary Point, Volume 24 • Number 1 • Spring/Summer 2006. Page 13

That is a very beautiful expression of Rebirth, and is my feeling of it too, and the way a lot of people express it these days.

And for doing so, maybe there are big, firey vats of boiling oil awaiting us in a Buddhist Hell which we can share.

(I will take my chances)

Gassho, Jundo

Save me a good seat, between you and Zen Master Seung Sahn!