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gems from chan master hongzhi

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gems from chan master hongzhi

Postby Guo Gu on Thu Feb 02, 2017 11:53 pm

hi all,
i thought i share some early translations that i did of chan master hongzhi zhengjue's (1091-1157) teachings. hongzhi is the purported founder of "silent illumination chan." post your thoughts on it, or comments. enjoy!

be well,
guo gu


Admonition on Chan Practice

The essential point of all the Buddhas,
the critical essence of each and every patriarch:
Knowing without encountering things;
illuminating without opposing conditions.

Knowing without encountering things—
this knowing is inherently subtle.
Illuminating without opposing conditions—
this luminosity is innately wondrous.

Knowing as inherently subtle,
it does not involve discriminating thoughts.
Luminosity as innately wondrous—
it is without a hair's breadth of signs.

Without discriminating thoughts,
it is free from [dualistic] ideas of odds and pairs.
Without hair's breadth of signs,
its illumination comprehends without any grasping:

The water so clear—transparent to the bottom.
Late, late, fishes have yet to appear.
The sky so vast—without boundaries.
distant, out of sight, the birds left no trace.
Founder and teacher of Tallahassee Chan Center of the Dharma Drum Lineage of Chan Buddhism
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Received inka from Master Sheng Yen (1930-2009) in 1995
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Re: gems from chan master hongzhi

Postby Caodemarte on Fri Feb 03, 2017 12:13 am

Thank you.
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Re: gems from chan master hongzhi

Postby Avisitor on Fri Feb 03, 2017 6:22 am

My non-sense is just non-sense
Please pay no attention to it ...

I think it is nice to be able to share such words from the past
However, one shouldn't be looking for words of illumination in them
There are no secrets to pass on
No words of wisdom to latch onto
Just stuff to enjoy, smile and move on

Again pay no heed to me .... :heya:
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Re: gems from chan master hongzhi

Postby Caodemarte on Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:00 pm

After the fish appear, isn't the water still transparent? Aren't the fish transparent, too?
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Re: gems from chan master hongzhi

Postby ed blanco on Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:19 pm

...almost like the Heart Sutra.

Avalokistasvara while doing deep prajna paramita saw all conditions emtpty of self existence....PERIOD no more.

Us at zazen.
Right effort and nothing else,
seeing through the ghost of things substantial brings deep realization, compassion, wisdom; parjana.

Gassho

:O:
IT SPEAKS IN SILENCE
IN SPEECH YOU HEAR ITS SILENCE

Yongjia Xuanjue
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Re: gems from chan master hongzhi

Postby partofit22 on Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:56 pm

Multi-faceted, clear gems, interconnected-ness-
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Re: gems from chan master hongzhi

Postby Linda Anderson on Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:08 pm

:Namaste:
Not last night,
not this morning;
Melon flowers bloomed.
~ Bassho
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Re: gems from chan master hongzhi

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:11 pm

C.,

Caodemarte wrote:After the fish appear, isn't the water still transparent? Aren't the fish transparent, too?

There are times when the fish do not appear, and they cannot even be forced to appear.

(say, for weeks, or months; I think we all know that Awakening can be covered-up again, and is not necessarily "forever". E.g., among other famous Chan and Zen masters, Hakuin writes in his autobiography about his multiple awakenings).

With no place to stand ("abiding nowhere", as in the Prajnaparamita literature), there is nowhere, no place, to put a lever, to get that kind of forced leverage to make the fish appear (to cause a discrete-thought to form, or to force the mind to move); there is not even a fulcrum or a lever to be found, anywhere. Nor is a "mind" to be found, in fact; it is impossible).

What there is in daily life, instead, is great, open emptiness, and nothing going-on; one would not even say that things in the environment are moving, even while they are seen to be moving.

All there is, instead, is the arising of true Wisdom, and true Compassion, in seamless, instantaneous, and spontaneous response to circumstances in daily life. Really, marvelous; and truly, truly wonderful.

Guo Gu, please check these statements of mine, about the experience of mind in day-to-day, ordinary, daily-life, following an awakening. Because, although this is in fact my experience during various long intervals following occasions of intensive practice on certain Chan retreats, and certain Zen sesshin, perhaps I should not speak so plainly, if what I have to say falls under that famous injunction (the one of, "Do not speak too plainly"). The concern is that others may be polluted by such talk, if they have not yet had this very experience of living this way.

Yet, Master Hong Zhi's writing does not seem to "pollute". Instead, if one has not yet had this experience, his writing is just impossible to understand truly, because one lacks categories for it in one's current stock of experience. And the state he writes about is indeed unimaginable, in any case. But if readers do not wind up being totally mystified by what is said, at least perhaps they are curious, and become more curious, so that the writing may in fact help their faith and determination to practice. Anyway, I think that is the motivation -- or the natural reason, rather (even if not per se an explicit "hope") -- why awakened people like Hong Zhi write what they do, or why they have written it.

:Namaste:,

--Joe
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Re: gems from chan master hongzhi

Postby flutemaker on Fri Feb 03, 2017 8:04 pm

trying to play tune with no sound
each sound comes out of tune
playing like all people play
sounds start to refine naturally

each sound comes out of tune
but silence is out of tune either
sounds start to refine naturally
but always hair's breadth off the mark

silence, sounds, all is out of tune --
but what is "neither silence nor sound"?
just hair's breadth off the mark --
how many lifetimes to travel that long?

"neither silence nor sound"
this is in each cane of bamboo
why then your iron rod
knows no rest burning new holes?

the water, the fishes,
the sky, and the birds,
the whole universe is expressed
in a single sound of a flute
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Re: gems from chan master hongzhi

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:03 pm

Welcome, flutemaker!

Do you also call yourself anirukta?, and gato? (your name would suit someone here who has historically called himself those names).

Best wishes in this incarnation.

--Joe
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Re: gems from chan master hongzhi

Postby Guo Gu on Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:18 pm

buddhadharma is useful for those who have not fully realized buddhadharma. so in this sense, the words from the past (or words in general) are very useful as a guide. no words of wisdom to latch onto, yes, but words (teachings) are useful.

there is no one who has realize buddhadharma fully. the dharma is inexhaustible; self-attachment is ever so subtle. the more we practice, the more we discover. if we don't discover anything, then either we're fooling ourselves or just plain deluded. practice continues without end... and must be thorough.

caodemarte,
not thinking of "after" (or before), this line speaks of the present: which is, fish have yet to appear. it's not saying there are fish, nor is it saying there are no fish.

there's no after, so of what use is water or whether it is transparent or not? hongzhi is only being honest/frank at the time he wrote thi line. he wasn't projecting into future or past. do you see?

joe,
for most ppl, fish swim freely all over the place. even when there seems to be no fish, that's not the case--it's just that ppl's eyes are not open to see them. even when fish do not appear, that can become another kind of fish!

what you've wrote may be an effect of seeing self-nature. however, without verification it is hard to say. i say "may be" because post samadhi (and shallow oneness) experiences can be quite similar to what you describe. many practitioners and teachers are tricked by such experiences and mistake them to be awakening.

it also depends on the teacher; what one teacher verify may not be the case for another. we see this quite often in historical cases of many chan masters. for example, before meeting yuanwu, dahui was verified by both coadong and linji masters. but yuanwu would not give him the seal of approval.

the reality is, shallow experiences or glimpses of awakening really doesn't mean anything. they really have no transformative power. self attachment may be temporarily absent, but such experiences are typically powerless to vexations and self-grasping afterwards. thus, this reiterates my point of practice as having no end and must be thorough. and of course, practice doesn't not mean sitting or just using a method. life is practice.

the real litmus test is the degree to which one's eyes are open to recognize vexations and self-grasping in daily situations. eyes wide open is humbling.

so what do you all say about:
"Knowing without encountering things; illuminating without opposing conditions."

be well,
guo gu
Founder and teacher of Tallahassee Chan Center of the Dharma Drum Lineage of Chan Buddhism
http://www.tallahasseechan.com/
Received inka from Master Sheng Yen (1930-2009) in 1995
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Re: gems from chan master hongzhi

Postby Guo Gu on Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:21 pm

flutemaker wrote:trying to play tune with no sound
each sound comes out of tune
playing like all people play
sounds start to refine naturally

each sound comes out of tune
but silence is out of tune either
sounds start to refine naturally
but always hair's breadth off the mark

silence, sounds, all is out of tune --
but what is "neither silence nor sound"?
just hair's breadth off the mark --
how many lifetimes to travel that long?

"neither silence nor sound"
this is in each cane of bamboo
why then your iron rod
knows no rest burning new holes?

the water, the fishes,
the sky, and the birds,
the whole universe is expressed
in a single sound of a flute



ani,
good to see you.
a flute without holes produces melody beyond sounds.
be well,
guo gu
Founder and teacher of Tallahassee Chan Center of the Dharma Drum Lineage of Chan Buddhism
http://www.tallahasseechan.com/
Received inka from Master Sheng Yen (1930-2009) in 1995
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Re: gems from chan master hongzhi

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:57 pm

Thanks, Guo Gu, for all you remind us of in your reply. Points well taken.

Guo Gu wrote:so what do you all say about:
"Knowing without encountering things; illuminating without opposing conditions."

As for this, I'll ask if you can please give two or three more alternative (other... ) translations of these words, which are nonetheless still consistent with your understanding of the original. The reason is that the translation is possibly not very colloquial, or is either too literal, or not literal at all.

Given two or three more translations, I should be able to claim some understanding of the translation, and could then answer. Will you try, please? Or, "assign" the task to another good translator of Chinese to colloquial English. Usually, one translation is never enough, especially when it comes to poetry. Thanks! for considering this.

:Namaste:,

--Joe

ps The poem seems to treat of experience in seated meditation. My considerations (in the reply, a couple of posts above) were (are) of daily life, in activity, when there is no mind, with all our original human inheritances operating naturally, and freely.
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Re: gems from chan master hongzhi

Postby Caodemarte on Sat Feb 04, 2017 12:49 am

Guo Gu wrote:buddhadharma is useful for those who have not fully realized buddhadharma. so in this sense, the words from the past (or words in general) are very useful as a guide. no words of wisdom to latch onto, yes, but words (teachings) are useful.

there is no one who has realize buddhadharma fully. the dharma is inexhaustible; self-attachment is ever so subtle. the more we practice, the more we discover. if we don't discover anything, then either we're fooling ourselves or just plain deluded. practice continues without end... and must be thorough...
caodemarte,
not thinking of "after" (or before), this line speaks of the present: which is, fish have yet to appear. it's not saying there are fish, nor is it saying there are no fish...there's no after, so of what use is water or whether it is transparent or not? hongzhi is only being honest/frank at the time he wrote thi line. he wasn't projecting into future or past. do you see?...so what do you all say about: "Knowing without encountering things; illuminating without opposing conditions."


At that moment that pond is very still and deep. The water drops that compose it flow into and out of each other without obstruction at that moment. Hongzhi must already be in the water without getting wet. So no Hongzhi; no water at that moment.
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Re: gems from chan master hongzhi

Postby flutemaker on Sat Feb 04, 2017 6:40 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:Given two or three more translations, I should be able to claim some understanding of the translation, and could then answer.

1. (translated by Taizan Maezumi Roshi and Neal Donner)

Knows without relating to things
and illuminates without reflecting upon objects.

2. (translated by Carl Bielefeldt)

It knows without touching things;
It illumines without facing objects.

3. (translated by Rev. Hubert Nearman aka Mark J. Nearman)

Is to know It without ‘stirring anything up’
And to be illumined without setting up an opposite.

4. (translated by Guo Gu)*

Source: Chan_Magazine_Spring_2007, Chan_Magazine_Summer_2007

Without encountering things, it knows;
not opposing conditions, it illumines.

5. (translated by Dan Leighton)

is to know without touching things
and illuminate without encountering objects.

In master Sheng Yen's "Guide to Cultivation and Realization of Chan Practice" (禪門修證指要) page 123, a line by line detailed explanation should be found dealing with the 16 points of Master Hongzhi's Mozhao (silent illumination) teachings.

The source in Chinese is available online at:

T48n2001_p0098a28(00)║   坐禪箴
T48n2001_p0098a29(00)║佛佛要機祖祖機要。不觸事而知。
T48n2001_p0098b01(04)║不對緣而照。不觸事而知。其知自微不對緣而照。
T48n2001_p0098b02(02)║其照自妙。其知自微。曾無分別之思。其照自妙。
T48n2001_p0098b03(01)║曾無毫忽之兆。曾無分別之思。其知無偶而奇。
T48n2001_p0098b04(00)║曾無毫匆之兆。其照無取而了。水清徹底兮。
T48n2001_p0098b05(00)║魚行遲遲。空闊莫涯兮。鳥飛杳杳。

The outcome of my playing with photoshop, adding translit, looks like this:

zuo-chan-zhen.GIF
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Re: gems from chan master hongzhi

Postby Avisitor on Sun Feb 05, 2017 4:53 am

Guo Gu wrote:buddhadharma is useful for those who have not fully realized buddhadharma. so in this sense, the words from the past (or words in general) are very useful as a guide. no words of wisdom to latch onto, yes, but words (teachings) are useful.

If those words or teachings are not grounded to the situation of the student then isn't it subject to misinterpretation?
Have seen the way people tend to fill their world with things the way they want to see them. And this mixed-message get passed on and on.

Guo Gu wrote:the real litmus test is the degree to which one's eyes are open to recognize vexations and self-grasping in daily situations. eyes wide open is humbling.

And the practice goes on. Sometimes big steps and sometimes small steps.
And then sometimes two steps back

Guo Gu wrote:so what do you all say about:
"Knowing without encountering things; illuminating without opposing conditions."

be well,
guo gu


The words are sweet as wine. And equally as intoxicating.
Shakespeare " If music be the food of love, play on. Give me excess of it that ..."
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Re: gems from chan master hongzhi

Postby Gregory Wonderwheel on Sun Feb 05, 2017 6:15 am

Hi Guo Gu,

I love this little gem. This was a favorite of Dogen's who tweaked it as he usually did with everything he considered. But Hongzhi's original is more than sufficient.
Here's the rough at translation I did a while ago. FYI for readers, Zuochan is the Chinese and Zazen is the Japanese.
The linking of the lines from stanza to stanza with the repetition of two lines from the previous stanza is a particularly elegant style, that some people might think is "too cute," but I have always enjoyed poetic verse that uses these kinds of "artificial" formats to structure the poem.

[From T48n2001_p0098a28]

Caveats of Sitting Meditation
坐禪箴
Zuochan Zhen

By Zen Master Hongzhi Zhengjue of Tiantong (1091-1157)

The essential point of the Buddhas,
the pointed essence of the ancestors,
Is not to contact affairs, yet to know;
Is not to face conditions, yet to illumine.

“Not to contact affairs, yet to know,”
That knowing is naturally subtle.
“Not to face conditions, yet to illumine,”
That illumination is naturally marvelous.

“That knowing is naturally subtle”
is already without thoughts of discrimination.
“That illumination is naturally marvelous”
is already without portents of the minutest abruptness.

“Already without thoughts of discrimination.”
that knowing is without images, yet is extraordinary.
“Already without portents of the minutest haste”
that illumination is without grasping, yet is complete.

The clarity of the water is unobstructed to the bottom, ah,
The fishes activity - slower and slower.
The spaciousness of the sky has no shoreline, ah,
The birds flying - deeper and deeper.

Alternatives to the fishes and birds lines:
The activity of the fishes, so very late.
The activity of the fishes, later and later.
/
The flying of the birds, so very obscured
The flying of the birds, dimmer and dimmer.
The flying of the birds so very dark


_/|\_
Gregory
Why you do not understand is because the three carts were provisional for former times, and because the One Vehicle is true for the present time. ~ Zen Master 6th Ancestor Huineng
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Re: gems from chan master hongzhi

Postby Gregory Wonderwheel on Sun Feb 05, 2017 6:57 am

Adding my translation to flutemaker's list as 6.

不觸事而知。
不對緣而照。

When I look at the Chinese of these two lines, what strikes me is the symmetry of the lines with the first and fourth character of the lines being the same. So for me, any translation must keep the same format with the translation for the first character 不 and that for the fourth character 而 the same in each line. Some people will say this approach is too literal, but to me it is necessary given the strict structure of Hongzhi's verse.
I generally only use "without" to translate 無 wu, and to translate 不 bu, I use "is not, are not, do not, does not" or a negative prefix like "un-, non-, in-, im-" etc.

_/|\_
Gregory


1. (translated by Taizan Maezumi Roshi and Neal Donner)

Knows without relating to things
and illuminates without reflecting upon objects.

2. (translated by Carl Bielefeldt)

It knows without touching things;
It illumines without facing objects.

3. (translated by Rev. Hubert Nearman aka Mark J. Nearman)

Is to know It without ‘stirring anything up’
And to be illumined without setting up an opposite.

4. (translated by Guo Gu)*

Source: Chan_Magazine_Spring_2007, Chan_Magazine_Summer_2007

Without encountering things, it knows;
not opposing conditions, it illumines.

5. (translated by Dan Leighton)

is to know without touching things
and illuminate without encountering objects.

6. (translated by Gregory Wonderwheel)

Is not to contact affairs, yet to know;
Is not to face conditions, yet to illumine.
Why you do not understand is because the three carts were provisional for former times, and because the One Vehicle is true for the present time. ~ Zen Master 6th Ancestor Huineng
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Re: gems from chan master hongzhi

Postby Gregory Wonderwheel on Sun Feb 05, 2017 7:34 am

Guo Gu wrote:buddhadharma is useful for those who have not fully realized buddhadharma. so in this sense, the words from the past (or words in general) are very useful as a guide. no words of wisdom to latch onto, yes, but words (teachings) are useful.

As the Treatise on the Mahayana Arousing of Faith says, words are already free of words, and the correct designation of the limits of words enables words to banish false dependence on words.

Treatise on the Mahayana Arousing of Faith wrote:That which is the Mind’s True Suchness, is exactly the characteristic of the great unity of the One Dharma-realm (dharmadhâtu) and the essence of the Dharma Gate. That which is designated the Nature of the Mind is unborn and undying. There is differentiation of all the various things only by relying on deluded thinking. If one is free from deluding thinking, then one is without the whole objective realm of characteristics. This is because all things have already come from the root free from the characteristics of verbal expressions, free from the characteristics of names and words, and free from the characteristics of the mind’s cognition, and in the absolute equality they are without the transformations of existence and are unable to be destroyed. Because there is only the One Mind, it is called True Suchness.
By considering all verbal expressions to be provisional they are called unreal, yet because of following deluded thinking one is unable to get it. In that which is the True Suchness of words, likewise, there are no characteristics of existence. Designating the limit of verbal expressions causes words to banish words.


Guo Gu wrote:there is no one who has realized buddhadharma fully. the dharma is inexhaustible; self-attachment is ever so subtle. the more we practice, the more we discover. if we don't discover anything, then either we're fooling ourselves or just plain deluded. practice continues without end... and must be thorough.


That "the dharma is inexhaustible" is ever so subtle and fathomless. Hakuin said he found the endless discovery framed by the daily practice of the Four Great Vows. Many people hear it as a shock that no one has realized buddhadharma fully. If Buddha had realized buddhadharma fully, then it could not be said about him that he taught for 45 years yet never uttered a word.

Guo Gu wrote:the real litmus test is the degree to which one's eyes are open to recognize vexations and self-grasping in daily situations. eyes wide open is humbling.


Even Buddha had occasions in daily situations when Mara came forward to be recognized once again.
The presence of constructed duality in language itself to fabricate language in the first place makes using language/words vexatious per se as long as we adhere to "using" as a measure of distance between self and other, between subject and object. The vexations of the view of self and the views of things both arise as fantasy (parikalpita svabhava) constructed from our inherent function of imagination (paratantra svabhava). When our imagination is free from fantasy then we become aware of the ultimate environment of true suchness (parinishpanna svabhava).
However, to be alive, our imagination swims like a fish and flies like a bird in fantasy, while being free from fantasy, to carry out our Bodhisattva vow of liberating all beings.
Signlessness has very subtle agitations and vexations. The signlessness of emptiness is what is called the "dark cave" or the "sticky tray of black lacquer." As long as we abide in emptiness as the signless we lose sight of our humanity. The exit from the subtle literalization of emptiness is the medicine for the disease of the limitation of emptiness. With exit from signless emptiness we manifest as the signless suchness of just this, just thus. As Baizhang said, the elementary level is to abide in emptiness, the intermediate level is to not abide in emptiness, and the final or complete level is to have no conception of non-abiding in emptiness.

Guo Gu wrote:so what do you all say about:
"Knowing without encountering things; illuminating without opposing conditions."

be well,
guo gu


"Knowing without encountering things;"
Knowing is not knowing; not knowing is the true essence of every thing.
"illuminating without opposing conditions."
Illuminating is not illuminating; not illuminating is the true radiance of every condition.

_/|\_
Gregory
Why you do not understand is because the three carts were provisional for former times, and because the One Vehicle is true for the present time. ~ Zen Master 6th Ancestor Huineng
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Re: gems from chan master hongzhi

Postby desert_woodworker on Sun Feb 05, 2017 2:10 pm

Words only point, and do not "contain".

The entirety of Zen Buddhist dharma is a "pointing". And "a pointing" is all that a teacher, a text, or a training can do. It's a lot.

When one lives experience ("live", not 'Memorex'; from "the inside", in every moment), one sees the applicability and exact limitations of prior or present words, and their usefulness.

Again I'm talking about daily-life, not necessarily just seated meditation.

:Namaste:,

--Joe

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